AHC: Nestorian chinese

[Yeiro]

So I've been reading about the history of Christianity in East Asia and I've been thinking, what if the Nestorian Christians were able to create a lasting community in China? It is not necessary that they convert all of China to Christianity, simply that they become an "ethnicity"* like the Hui, my main interests are how would the Nestorians influence the history of East Asia? And how would Chinese culture and philosophy influence Nestorian teology?

*calling the Hui an ethnic group seems odd to me because the majority are simply Han Muslims, the quotes are not intended to offend.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

If the Huichang Persecutions can be averted, or at least delayed by half-a-century or more, it could be that said Christian community grows just large enough that they can't be so easily persecuted into oblivion as they were OTL.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Actually, this raises a really good AH scenario that I don't think this site has asked before -- how could the Huichang Persecutions have been averted, and what would be the effects? How would the next six decades of the Tang Dynasty be affected? How would Buddhism in China be affected? And of course, how would the Chinese Nestorian Christian community be affected? (We could also ask how Zoroastrianism and Manicheanism do, though somehow I think the Christians have more potential for growth than they do.) If this can be done with a post-819 PoD, all the better.

 

[Avrorrange]

Actually, this raises a really good AH scenario that I don't think this site has asked before -- how could the Huichang Persecutions have been averted, and what would be the effects? How would the next six decades of the Tang Dynasty be affected? How would Buddhism in China be affected? And of course, how would the Chinese Nestorian Christian community be affected? (We could also ask how Zoroastrianism and Manicheanism do, though somehow I think the Christians have more potential for growth than they do.) If this can be done with a post-819 PoD, all the better.

Most likely a more rapid collapse of the Tang dynasty. The crackdowns on all these religions freed up a lot of resources. There is without a doubt that all these religious, Buddhism in particular has been taking advantage of it’s tax exempt status to gobble up land and reduce taxable land to the Tang government.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Most likely a more rapid collapse of the Tang dynasty. The crackdowns on all these religions freed up a lot of resources. There is without a doubt that all these religious, Buddhism in particular has been taking advantage of it’s tax exempt status to gobble up land and reduce taxable land to the Tang government.

"Greedy foreign religions" certainly wasn't far from how the issue was framed by proponents at the time, but there other ways the story can be told -- you could also look at the decades spent by the imperial government to restore control over military governors following the An Lushan Rebellion; another looking at the profligate household spending and poor economic policies of emperors like Muzong and Jingzong; or another where the factional intrigues of Li Deyu cannot be separated from his most consequential policies.

 

[Miyako]

Actually, this raises a really good AH scenario that I don't think this site has asked before -- how could the Huichang Persecutions have been averted, and what would be the effects? How would the next six decades of the Tang Dynasty be affected? How would Buddhism in China be affected? And of course, how would the Chinese Nestorian Christian community be affected? (We could also ask how Zoroastrianism and Manicheanism do, though somehow I think the Christians have more potential for growth than they do.) If this can be done with a post-819 PoD, all the better.

If the Tang Dynasty managed to maintain internal stability, avoiding major internal conflicts and rebellions, there might be less inclination for the government to scapegoat foreign religions. A prosperous economy could also reduce the likelihood of the government seeking external targets for blame. Economic stability might lead to a more tolerant attitude towards different belief system. On top of that if the Tang rulers implemented more inclusive policies towards various religions, fostering a climate of religious tolerance, it could discourage persecution. This might involve recognizing the positive contributions of Buddhism and other religions to Chinese culture and society.

Most likely a more rapid collapse of the Tang dynasty. The crackdowns on all these religions freed up a lot of resources. There is without a doubt that all these religious, Buddhism in particular has been taking advantage of it’s tax exempt status to gobble up land and reduce taxable land to the Tang government.

While it is true that the Huichang Persecutions released resources by targeting various religious institutions, the assumption of a more rapid collapse of the Tang dynasty in the absence of such crackdowns is icorrect. The persecutions, while providing short-term economic relief, also had detrimental long-term effects on stability and social harmony.

The Tang Dynasty did face economic challenges, including the so-called "Fubing System," where military service was tied to landownership. Economic issues were not solely caused by religious institutions, but rather by a combination of factors such as mismanagement, corruption, and military expenditure.

Firstly, the crackdowns on Buddhism, and other religions created social unrest and discontent among the populace. While it's true that some Buddhist monasteries were tax-exempt, they also played significant roles in economic development. Many monasteries were involved in agricultural activities, education, and even medical services. They served as centers for technological and agricultural innovation, contributing positively to the economy. The crackdowns caused social unrest and the potential for internal strife and rebellion may have outweighed the immediate economic benefits.

The crackdowns on Buddhism were not solely motivated by economic considerations. Political and ideological factors were equally significant drivers of these measures. The state's attempt to exert control over religious institutions was intertwined with efforts to consolidate political power and shape ideological narratives. Suppressing Buddhism did not automatically lead to a more stable or prosperous state. Instead, it disrupted a complex network of economic, cultural, and social contributions that Buddhism, among other religions, made to the fabric of Tang Dynasty society.

 

[Avrorrange]

If the Tang Dynasty managed to maintain internal stability, avoiding major internal conflicts and rebellions, there might be less inclination for the government to scapegoat foreign religions. A prosperous economy could also reduce the likelihood of the government seeking external targets for blame. Economic stability might lead to a more tolerant attitude towards different belief system. On top of that if the Tang rulers implemented more inclusive policies towards various religions, fostering a climate of religious tolerance, it could discourage persecution. This might involve recognizing the positive contributions of Buddhism and other religions to Chinese culture and society.


While it is true that the Huichang Persecutions released resources by targeting various religious institutions, the assumption of a more rapid collapse of the Tang dynasty in the absence of such crackdowns is icorrect. The persecutions, while providing short-term economic relief, also had detrimental long-term effects on stability and social harmony.

The Tang Dynasty did face economic challenges, including the so-called "Fubing System," where military service was tied to landownership. Economic issues were not solely caused by religious institutions, but rather by a combination of factors such as mismanagement, corruption, and military expenditure.

Firstly, the crackdowns on Buddhism, and other religions created social unrest and discontent among the populace. While it's true that some Buddhist monasteries were tax-exempt, they also played significant roles in economic development. Many monasteries were involved in agricultural activities, education, and even medical services. They served as centers for technological and agricultural innovation, contributing positively to the economy. The crackdowns caused social unrest and the potential for internal strife and rebellion may have outweighed the immediate economic benefits.

The crackdowns on Buddhism were not solely motivated by economic considerations. Political and ideological factors were equally significant drivers of these measures. The state's attempt to exert control over religious institutions was intertwined with efforts to consolidate political power and shape ideological narratives. Suppressing Buddhism did not automatically lead to a more stable or prosperous state. Instead, it disrupted a complex network of economic, cultural, and social contributions that Buddhism, among other religions, made to the fabric of Tang Dynasty society.

Yes, there was major corruption at this point in time, but the crackdown on the monasteries was part of a major effort to clean it up. The monasteries have illegally taken a lot of land and de facto made them tax exempt through loop holes or outright corruption. The monasteries became extremely wealthy and caused a lot of people to become monks or nuns instead of contributing to the economy, many of whom were frankly unqualified and were conducting a lot of illegal activities using religion as an excuse like usury and selling indulgences. Quite often they were also helping aristocrats skip taxes as a favour by pretending to be the owner of the noble’s land on their behalf. A result of the persecution was the dismissal of corrupt monks and nuns, with there being much greater oversight on people who wanted to be monks or nuns. Those who wanted to remain or enter the profession had to undergo exams which tested their knowledge of the scriptures.

Many of the nuns and monks dismissed were sent to farm in the fields previously owned by the monasteries instead, which increased economic and agricultural production. To give you an example of the excess amount of monks and nuns, the Tang government sent around 300,000 monks and nuns back to the farms. The modern Catholic Church by comparison has some 400k priests. So the number of monks and nuns in the Tang Dynasty was definitely a massive economic burden. Frankly, the effects of the persecution on Buddhism was a bit overstated. The anti-Buddhist Wuzong was almost immediately replaced by the pro-Buddhist Xuangzong, who tightened government oversight but did no further crackdowns. The move could be better said as centralising buddhism, with the small poorly regulated monasteries being closed down and the more pious monks/nuns being moved to larger complexes.

It should be noted that there were no rebellions in the aftermath of any of the crackdowns. The wealth seized became the basis of a short period of revitalization for the Tang Dynasty. The dynasty's final demise actually coincided with the ascension of Emperor Yizong, who was even more pro-Buddhist than Xuanzong, and restored much of the wealth and privileges stripped from the Buddhists, bankrupting the treasury in the process. This forced the government to increase taxes in other areas instead, which was the direct cause of the smugglers' rebellions which ended the dynasty.

When the Later Zhou Dynasty and the Song Dynasty restored order, they restored many of the same policies Wuzong and Xuanzong implemented to regain government authority over the Buddhist monasteries, which became the basis of the Song Dynasty's power to reunify China. Considering that, Wuzong’s policy wasn’t actually a bad move.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

If the Tang Dynasty managed to maintain internal stability, avoiding major internal conflicts and rebellions, there might be less inclination for the government to scapegoat foreign religions. A prosperous economy could also reduce the likelihood of the government seeking external targets for blame. Economic stability might lead to a more tolerant attitude towards different belief system. On top of that if the Tang rulers implemented more inclusive policies towards various religions, fostering a climate of religious tolerance, it could discourage persecution. This might involve recognizing the positive contributions of Buddhism and other religions to Chinese culture and society.

What is the latest plausible PoD, would you say, to delay persecutions similar to the Huichang by at least half a century? Would after the Yuanhe Restoration (under Xianzong) be too late?

CONSOLIDATE: Getting back to the (original) OP -- would a move towards “centralizing” Buddhism be possible without cracking down on other religions, or at least not specifically on the Nestorian Church?

 

[Avrorrange]

Getting back to the (original) OP -- would a move towards “centralizing” Buddhism be possible without cracking down on other religions, or at least not specifically on the Nestorian Church?

I guess so,especially if they had allies in gov. Most of the wealth was in the hands of the Buddhists. Ironically, the family of Wuzong’s grandmother were actually known to have close relations with the Nestorian Church, with her grandfather the great general Guo Ziyi being suspected of being one.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

I guess so,especially if they had allies in gov. Most of the wealth was in the hands of the Buddhists. Ironically, the family of Wuzong’s grandmother were actually known to have close relations with the Nestorian Church, with her grandfather the great general Guo Ziyi being suspected of being one.

Notably, his full-brother, Li Wu, was supposedly favored to take the throne in 827, but had been killed in a dispute with the eventual successor, Wenzong; his full-sister meanwhile, had been married off to the Uighur Khan, but would return to Chang-An years into her brother's reign. I don't know much about the extended family of Empress Dowager Guo. beyond her father and grandfather, as you seem to, but I do wonder if one her sons becomes emperor while having more of an incentive to maintain maternal family relations might be what we're looking for here.

 

[Avrorrange]

Notably, his full-brother, Li Wu, was supposedly favored to take the throne in 827, but had been killed in a dispute with the eventual successor, Wenzong; his full-sister meanwhile, had been married off to the Uighur Khan, but would return to Chang-An years into her brother's reign. I don't know much about the extended family of Empress Dowager Guo. beyond her father and grandfather, as you seem to, but I do wonder if one her sons becomes emperor while having more of an incentive to maintain maternal family relations might be what we're looking for here.

I‘m thinking more in terms of the Guo family remaining tightly connected to the Nestorians and being their guardians at court if not actually influence some of the Tang emperors to convert. Wuzong himself along with his uncle were NEVER supposed to be emperors. They rose to power over their predecessors’ natural successors through coups by the eunuch commanders in chief.

 

[Avrorrange]

"Greedy foreign religions" certainly wasn't far from how the issue was framed by proponents at the time, but there other ways the story can be told -- you could also look at the decades spent by the imperial government to restore control over military governors following the An Lushan Rebellion; another looking at the profligate household spending and poor economic policies of emperors like Muzong and Jingzong; or another where the factional intrigues of Li Deyu cannot be separated from his most consequential policies.

Buddhism at the time wasn’t really seen as that foreign. It’s really not that surprising that the pro-Buddhist Xuānzong took power after Wuzong. The entire Shence army was controlled by Buddhist Eunuch Commanders in Chief. These Commanders in Chief were the real rulers of the Tang Dynasty.