AHC: Neapolitan Habsburgs

The challenge is, at any point between 1516 and 1700, to split Naples off from the main Habsburg crown in Spain as a (quasi-)independent entity (similar to what a Habsburg Netherlands would've been). This would probably necessitate Karl V/Felipe II/Felipe IV to have more than two surviving sons (since I imagine that a second son would get Burgundy, while a third would get Naples).

My personal favourite would either be Karl V having three sons (D. Felipe II to inherit Spain; a second son to get Burgundy; and a third to get Naples) or Felipe IV (after Masaniello's Revolt) naming D. Juan José as king of Naples (Naples had been ruled by a bastard line before, so it's not unthinkable that Felipe might name JJ duke of Calabria - or somesuch).
 
The challenge is, at any point between 1516 and 1700, to split Naples off from the main Habsburg crown in Spain as a (quasi-)independent entity (similar to what a Habsburg Netherlands would've been). This would probably necessitate Karl V/Felipe II/Felipe IV to have more than two surviving sons (since I imagine that a second son would get Burgundy, while a third would get Naples).

My personal favourite would either be Karl V having three sons (D. Felipe II to inherit Spain; a second son to get Burgundy; and a third to get Naples) or Felipe IV (after Masaniello's Revolt) naming D. Juan José as king of Naples (Naples had been ruled by a bastard line before, so it's not unthinkable that Felipe might name JJ duke of Calabria - or somesuch).

Charles V legitimises and gives Don Juan of Austria the Kingdom of Naples. There is historic precedent of legitimised sons inheriting Naples.

Alternatively
Philip III wills Naples to infante Charles. Maybe at the behest of his wife? Or during the negotiations for Philip IVs marriage to Elisabeth of France in 1612 we just add Charles to the mix? Or to bring the Graz and Spanish line closer (unfortunately) double engagement is organised when john-charles (1st son of Ferdinand II) was arrange for Maria Anna (OTL wife of Ferdinand III), of course after is was clear Matthias would have no progeny.
 

Vitruvius

Donor
Charles V legitimises and gives Don Juan of Austria the Kingdom of Naples. There is historic precedent of legitimised sons inheriting Naples.

I think an early POD is probably best. Once Charles partitions his realms I think Naples is stuck with Spain until the Spanish Habsburg dynasty collapses. A bastard is probably a good bet as a legitimate second son would be more likely to get the Netherlands. Another idea, Charles has a bastard son with Germaine of Foix (instead of the alleged bastard daughter Isabel). This elder Don Juan would be born in 1518 and so would be a good 9 years older than Philip and possibly very close to his father so rewarding him with Naples might make sense. To create a tidy package Ferdinand of Calabria adopts him when he marries Germaine adding a veil of legitimacy.
 
Charles V legitimises and gives Don Juan of Austria the Kingdom of Naples. There is historic precedent of legitimised sons inheriting Naples.

Alternatively
Philip III wills Naples to infante Charles. Maybe at the behest of his wife? Or during the negotiations for Philip IVs marriage to Elisabeth of France in 1612 we just add Charles to the mix? Or to bring the Graz and Spanish line closer (unfortunately) double engagement is organised when john-charles (1st son of Ferdinand II) was arrange for Maria Anna (OTL wife of Ferdinand III), of course after is was clear Matthias would have no progeny.

I like the idea of D. Juan the Elder getting it. Would seem pretty awesome. Plus, he can marry some princess from a nice Italian state - not sure where, though, I guess it would depend on when he gets nominated (he was eleven when Karl V dies) and how Felipe II feels about this.

The idea of D. Carlos wedding Maria Anna/Cecilia Renata, is a nice one. Especially if Maria Ana were to wed Johann Ferdinand, and OTL Ferdinand III marries elsewhere. And then Johann Ferdinand dies without issue, and Maria Ana is left hanging. Then when the Emperor offers a bride to Maximilian I of Bavaria, the choice is between the Dowager Queen of the Romans (Maria Ana) and Cecilia Renata. Max marries the QotR, and thus diversifying the Spanish Habsburg portfolio.

I think an early POD is probably best. Once Charles partitions his realms I think Naples is stuck with Spain until the Spanish Habsburg dynasty collapses. A bastard is probably a good bet as a legitimate second son would be more likely to get the Netherlands. Another idea, Charles has a bastard son with Germaine of Foix (instead of the alleged bastard daughter Isabel). This elder Don Juan would be born in 1518 and so would be a good 9 years older than Philip and possibly very close to his father so rewarding him with Naples might make sense. To create a tidy package Ferdinand of Calabria adopts him when he marries Germaine adding a veil of legitimacy.

I like that idea too. Maybe, Germaine gives birth to twins. The daughter is married off to Cosimo de Medici (Eleonora de Toledo was the daughter of the Neapolitan viceroy, after all) and the son marries his cousin from Portugal (Maria of Viseu).
 
I like the idea of D. Juan the Elder getting it. Would seem pretty awesome. Plus, he can marry some princess from a nice Italian state - not sure where, though, I guess it would depend on when he gets nominated (he was eleven when Karl V dies) and how Felipe II feels about this.

The idea of D. Carlos wedding Maria Anna/Cecilia Renata, is a nice one. Especially if Maria Ana were to wed Johann Ferdinand, and OTL Ferdinand III marries elsewhere. And then Johann Ferdinand dies without issue, and Maria Ana is left hanging. Then when the Emperor offers a bride to Maximilian I of Bavaria, the choice is between the Dowager Queen of the Romans (Maria Ana) and Cecilia Renata. Max marries the QotR, and thus diversifying the Spanish Habsburg portfolio.



I like that idea too. Maybe, Germaine gives birth to twins. The daughter is married off to Cosimo de Medici (Eleonora de Toledo was the daughter of the Neapolitan viceroy, after all) and the son marries his cousin from Portugal (Maria of Viseu).
Pretty unlikely who Charles V will marry his daughter by Germaine to Cosimo after denying him the hand of Margherita (who had a lower-born mother)... Getting Naples away from Spain is not easy as that reign was inhereited by Charles together with the Spanish realms...
Need another kind of POD... the bastard son by Germaine maybe can barely work but the biggest problem on the road is who the Kingdom of Naples is exactly the one who Philip will need for having the right rank for marrying Mary Tudor
 
Pretty unlikely who Charles V will marry his daughter by Germaine to Cosimo after denying him the hand of Margherita (who had a lower-born mother)...

It was Margarethe who refused to be remarried to Cosimo IIRC (although I'm basing this on a book I read on the Villa Medici in Rome), not Karl who denied Cosimo a bride. Hence why Karl offered him his kinswoman, Eleonora de Toledo, instead.

A discussion I had a few years ago on Isabel. The gist was that having an extramarital child legitimated was one thing, having an extramarital child, within forbidden degrees of affinity (Germaine was Karl's step-grandma - not just for the soaps, folks) and then trying to get the pope to legitimate said child, good luck. You'd have a better chance of marrying Henry Fitzroy to the king of France's daughter.
 

Vitruvius

Donor
Yeah, I agree there are issues. I thought maybe with an older Don Juan Charles would be close to him, as his first born son, and so if he proves himself competent that Charles might want to provide for him. There's a few assumptions in there obviously but I figured that Charles would need some extra motivation to provide for his bastard that he didn't have with OTL Don Juan (who of course did not receive anything OTL).

As for legitimation I was thinking that while the fact that Germaine was Charles' step grand mother would be a problem neither was married at the time. So the child isn't the product of adultery on either side if however still born out of wedlock. And since she's noble too perhaps that would be more reason to legitimate her son. I suppose that probably only counts if Charles goes on to actually marry Germaine after the fact and retroactively legitimize his first born. I don't think that would ever happen and it's not what we're considering here anyways but it's a thought.
 
It was Margarethe who refused to be remarried to Cosimo IIRC (although I'm basing this on a book I read on the Villa Medici in Rome), not Karl who denied Cosimo a bride. Hence why Karl offered him his kinswoman, Eleonora de Toledo, instead.

A discussion I had a few years ago on Isabel. The gist was that having an extramarital child legitimated was one thing, having an extramarital child, within forbidden degrees of affinity (Germaine was Karl's step-grandma - not just for the soaps, folks) and then trying to get the pope to legitimate said child, good luck. You'd have a better chance of marrying Henry Fitzroy to the king of France's daughter.
Pretty unlikely who was Margarethe to refused the match with Cosimo as she was totally against marrying her second husband aka Ottavio Farnese who was the nephew of the Pope (likely you made confusion between the request of Cosimo and this match) but still do not rebel against her father’s will...
Eleonora of Toledo was high-ranking and a distant kinswoman of the Emperor but still lower in rank than Charles’ illegitimate daughter...
Plus Eleonora was not the bride either choised by Karl V or offered by Don Pedro (in either case the proposed bride was Isabella, the eldest of the four sisters but she was neither beautiful or smart so Cosimo choised Eleonora, who was the next sister and accepted a lower dowry for her)
 
Pretty unlikely who was Margarethe to refused the match with Cosimo as she was totally against marrying her second husband aka Ottavio Farnese who was the nephew of the Pope (likely you made confusion between the request of Cosimo and this match) but still do not rebel against her father’s will...
Eleonora of Toledo was high-ranking and a distant kinswoman of the Emperor but still lower in rank than Charles’ illegitimate daughter...
Plus Eleonora was not the bride either choised by Karl V or offered by Don Pedro (in either case the proposed bride was Isabella, the eldest of the four sisters but she was neither beautiful or smart so Cosimo choised Eleonora, who was the next sister and accepted a lower dowry for her)

"One of Cosimo's agents in Rome alerted his master that Isabella was bruttissima - extremely ugly - and generally the laughing stock of Naples....he asked for the hand of the marquis' next daughter and Don Pedro agreed." - Alexandra Bonfante-Warren and Gerhard Gruitrooy.The Pitti Palace Collections. 2005.

"
THere were fears for the duchy, but it turned out to be business as usual with the rise to power of Cosimo di Giovanni, who was elected as the new duke and immediately took up residence in the palazzo [Medici-Riccardi]. Lorenzino fled to Venice and his house was knocked down. Margarita left Florence for Rome where she was remarried, this time to Otavio Farnese, having refused to become the wife of the new duke. He, in turn, took as wife Eleonora of Toledo, the daughter of Don Pedro, the vice-king of Naples; so one way and another Cosimo got an equally noble wife." - Claudio Rendina. 2000. The Palazzi of Florence and Tuscany.
 
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