AHC: Nazi Germany 1989

The Tai-Pan

Joriz Castillo said:
Inspired by this thread:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/ahc-austria-hungary-1964.485525/

After beating the combined might of Britain, France, and the Soviet Union, Germany has gained an empire that stretches from the Atlantic to the Urals. 50 years later, what does the 3rd Reich look like socially, economically, politically, and demographically? How has the rest of the continent gotten along with it? How have things changed since then?
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Nazi Germany isn't going to last till 1989.
 

kmmontandon

Nazi Germany had an economic system that made the Soviet Union look well thought out, and would have peacetime internal politics that make Cold War sub-Saharan Africa look stable. They collapse into brutal (possibly nuclear) civil war by 1959.
 

Questerr

So not 1989 (instead 1983), but the book I’m working on (Der Kalterkrieg) is an alt history Cold War between the US and Nazi Germany.

Socially it’s both hyperconservative and collective-oriented, with people highly indoctrinated to put the “Volk” and Reich first.

Economically, it’s undergone massive reforms to fix the serious behind the scenes problems with the Reich’s economy, enduring a few recessions as a response. It’s somewhat similar economically to modern China: massive corporations partially owned and directed by the state command the economy and the public sector takes up more than 40% of the total pie.

Politically, it’s a one party totalitarian state leading an alliance of other one party totalitarian states. They support fascist and national socialist movements in other countries (for instance in Africa and the Middle East), ostensibly to counter the efforts of “Judeo-Bolshevik cabal that secretly runs the mongrel United States”.

Demographically, there’s four tiers:
-Germanics: proper Aryans who are culturally German, they have full rights and are top dogs.
-Non-Germanic Aryans: people considered Aryan racially, but not German culturally. These are your Dutch, Norwegians, Swedes, etc. Their rights are equal to Germanics, but they don’t have as much political or social influence.
-Non-Aryans: this includes “Honorary Aryan” races like Croats and Finns as well as groups like Non-German speaking Swiss or French speakers from Belgium. Second class citizens if they live within the Reich.
-Reformed Slavs: the population of Slavs “allowed to stay” in the Reich (really they figured Generalplan Ost couldn’t really exterminate everyone and it would be economically bad even if they did so). Only populate eastern regions and are banned from entering the Reich properly. De facto serfs and menial laborers with basically no rights.

How does the rest of the continent get along with them? Germany leads the Nuremberg Pact, a military alliance of every country in Europe outside of the British Isles. However, there’s a growing political split German National Socialism and Italian Fascism, one the United States has subtlety been trying to exploit.
 
Captain Homicide

Captain Homicide

This has been detailed elsewhere but assuming they didn’t get into another war with the WAllies (possibly nuclear) a victorious Reich would collapse shortly after Generalplan Ost was completed (1980 at the latest) due to the slave labor dying off, Europe being exploited to the maximum and the rot of the Nazi economic system finally catching up to them like the USSR.
 

Garrison

Donor
Honestly its going to be an unholy mess. They are going to bleed out economically trying to create Hitler's vision for German colonization in the east. After millions if not tens of millions of dead Western Russia is going to be littered with impressive looking towns and city crumbling away because, you know slave labour built them, and probably mostly empty or filled with people who've been forced to leave Germany to become colonists whether they like it or not. It's going to be dreadful mix of Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge and modern day North Korea.
 

Alanith

I think you're all being too generous to the Nazis. The moment Hitler is no longer breathing it's going to be a winner take all civil war among the Inner Circle, a civil war the Reich will not survive. So call it the 50's, 60's at the absolute most.
 

Questerr

Alanith said:
I think you're all being too generous to the Nazis. The moment Hitler is no longer breathing it's going to be a winner take all civil war among the Inner Circle, a civil war the Reich will not survive. So call it the 50's, 60's at the absolute most.
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That assumes someone smart and ruthless enough doesn’t eliminate his opponents in a coup de tat.
 
Captain Homicide

Captain Homicide

Goering was Hitler’s official successor but since he referred to Himmler as his “loyal Heinrich”, the growth of the SS’s power in a Nazi victory and their responsibility for carrying out Generalplan Ost along with the fact he was much closer ideologically to Hitler than Goering there’s a good chance that Hitler would choose Himmler as his successor. Besides that even if Hitler dies with Goering as his heir it’s likely Himmler (probably with the help of Goebbels and Bormann) would overthrow him.

In a Nazi victory Himmler would have control of the SS, Waffen SS, Gestapo and the police which combined with his ruthlessness, ambition and earning Hitler’s favor even more so through fulfilling his genocidal and repressive dreams would give him many advantages. The more true believers in the government, Wehrmacht and Nazi Party Himmler manages to get support from the more Goering’s chance of survival sinks. I can easily imagine Himmler advising Hitler to replace the various people in power (Generals, Gauleiters etc) with true believers after the war for this very eventuality. I’d say if Himmler gets Goebbels and Bormann’s support Goering most likely would be overthrown or prevented from taking office after Hitler’s death to begin with. Speer could go either way.

Here’s a relevant quote from CalBear:
Goring had the Luftwaffe and would be the preferred successor among the General Staff so his status had some strength behind it. Himmler, on the other hand, had the Gestapo, the SS (including the Waffen SS), and Reich Police. None of the other players had that degree of support, although each had a faction. It is also very likely that there would be a lost of alliance building if Hitler's demise was the result of a slow decline but if no handover of power took place before his death. If he anointed a successor AND handed that person the keys to the kingdom and along with his public blessing the odds are the system would fall into line

If he suddenly dropped dead?

At a guess, and it is a guess, if Goring takes control there is a reasonable chance of serious bloodletting, although not a civil war to the degree that the Reich actually fractures (although it might be possible for a prepared WAllied force to take advantage and get back onto the Continent). If Himmler grabs the reins its over. He owns the Secret police and a has a substantial conventional force as well. The rest of the military would likely bow to the reality and figure a Civil War would hurt the country more than letting Himmler run things. Goring, of course, would be a dead man walking.
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Lalli

There is not way how nazi Germany can survive to 1989. It was incompetyent place in everything expect genocides and destruction of cities. Germany would had fallen to civil war immediately after Hitler's last breathe. Or then there would be new war with USA and Britain. And even if Germany wouldn't fall to civil war after Hitler's death (hardly is going live longer than to 1950) and avoids new war with Wallies, Germany would collapes after finishing Generalplan Ost, which might happen sometimes in 1970's.

And evne if with some miraclous way nazi Germany lasts to 1989, it would be horrible place just expecting being to be destroyed. Eastern Europe would be largest graveyard in the world and every city between pre-war German border and Urals would are destroyed. All Jews in Europe, Slavs, Romanis etc. would are killed. That place would be horrible nightmare which would get North Korea looking like utopia.
 

Joriz Castillo

The Tai-Pan said:
Nazi Germany isn't going to last till 1989.
Click to expand...
kmmontandon said:
Nazi Germany had an economic system that made the Soviet Union look well thought out, and would have peacetime internal politics that make Cold War sub-Saharan Africa look stable. They collapse into brutal (possibly nuclear) civil war by 1959.
Click to expand...
Alanith said:
I think you're all being too generous to the Nazis. The moment Hitler is no longer breathing it's going to be a winner take all civil war among the Inner Circle, a civil war the Reich will not survive. So call it the 50's, 60's at the absolute most.
Click to expand...
Lalli said:
There is not way how nazi Germany can survive to 1989. It was incompetyent place in everything expect genocides and destruction of cities. Germany would had fallen to civil war immediately after Hitler's last breathe. Or then there would be new war with USA and Britain. And even if Germany wouldn't fall to civil war after Hitler's death (hardly is going live longer than to 1950) and avoids new war with Wallies, Germany would collapes after finishing Generalplan Ost, which might happen sometimes in 1970's.

And evne if with some miraclous way nazi Germany lasts to 1989, it would be horrible place just expecting being to be destroyed. Eastern Europe would be largest graveyard in the world and every city between pre-war German border and Urals would are destroyed. All Jews in Europe, Slavs, Romanis etc. would are killed. That place would be horrible nightmare which would get North Korea looking like utopia.
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All this talk is like if Stalin died, then all of his inner circle would battle it out in a civil war. Yet, that didn't happen. Just like how many people had predicted that the USSR would collapse over several decades yet that didn't happen until the 90s. I'm sure there would've been a power struggle of some sorts but not a civil war, also most of you left out the possibility of Goering or Speer being in charge and doing Khruschev-like reforms.
 

MrHaakwood

Joriz Castillo said:
All this talk is like if Stalin died, then all of his inner circle would battle it out in a civil war. Yet, that didn't happen. Just like how many people had predicted that the USSR would collapse over several decades yet that didn't happen until the 90s. I'm sure there would've been a power struggle of some sorts but not a civil war, also most of you left out the possibility of Goering or Speer being in charge and doing Khruschev-like reforms.
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Dont bother arguing one of the holy rules of ah.com.

"Nazi Germany must & will collapse!"
 

pattersonautobody

I did a Timeline where Germany wins the war due to being more aggressive at Dunkirk and the US having a 30s Civil War (Huey Long is President). By the 1960s, they have all the social ills of the United States and even Jewish immigration. I think once Hitler is gone, pragmatism takes over. It won't be a good or moral state, but it will be run by people looking to have one over the other and economically they will end up giving internal freedom of movement. There will be vestiges of the past, such as the racial laws, which will be interpreted in strange ways so that most people can just go about their lives. The holocaust will be viewed as the gulag in Russia. "Whoops, we did that, that was bad, listen to the new leader." So as I said before, not a moral state, but not very different than modern Europe ultimately. An EU-type organization, but with a Soviet-style military, and antiquated racial laws which must have lip service paid to.

Too bad I never finished. I was finiding it too hard to have these German leaders die on the same exact day as their American Presidential equivalents that they were mimicking. I wrote it before the Trump regime and it was supposed to end with "Drumpf" being Reich Prasident.

Heil Herr Präsident: Alternate Third Reich

Adolf Hitler (1933-1945) The first German leader to assume the role of both Chancellor and President, he did not live to enjoy the fruits of German victory that he worked for years to attain. Adolf Hitler might have not even been a footnote in history if his sheer animal instincts did not...
www.alternatehistory.com
 
Gillan1220

Gillan1220

Alanith said:
I think you're all being too generous to the Nazis. The moment Hitler is no longer breathing it's going to be a winner take all civil war among the Inner Circle, a civil war the Reich will not survive. So call it the 50's, 60's at the absolute most.
Click to expand...
This.

Most of those victorious Nazi Germany scenario always features a power struggle following Hitler's death with civil war being inevitable. Also, most scenarios pinpoint the Reich collapsing by the 1960s since its economy was crap. Heck, even the Soviet Union, China, and North Korea look better by comparison. The Reich won't make it into the 1970s, that's a certainty.

What happens next is a Europe in need of aid, reconstruction, and de-nazification that would greatly eclipse OTL's Marshall Plan.
 

superkuf

The Third Reich IOTL was a house of cards, and all future plans more so.

To survive beyond the 1950/60s it would have to transform like China after 1980 - keep the rethoric and outer trappings of the ideology, keep the Party in unquestionable power but ditch a lot of the non-working practices. But China had the cultural revolution and could start all over with a blank slate - the vested interests, bureaucracy and organisations had all been destroyed. I can't see Nazi Germany do something similar (the Night of the Long Knifes was a surgical one-time strike followed with "more of the same").

But if Nazi Germany did the changes neccesary to survive until the 80s it would be very different from Nazi Germany 1938 - not to mention all changes due to WW2 and following occupation duties. I guess some form of resistance against sending young men to the East would arise, corruption within the Party would be an eternal problem and the science community be highly politisiced á la Lysenko. Just handling the small inefficent farmers (that were a basis of Nazi ideology) would lead to political unrest, that could be exploited by some part of the Nazi leadership.

And notice - the cold war IOTL was between the Soviet Union and the West, with China on the sidelines. ITTL Nazi Germany would be the main enemy - no possiblities for an export oriented economy exporting toys to the West.
 

walmart

What reason does anyone outside of the party elite have to fight to the death over a feudalistic struggle for leadership between essentially identical positions?
 
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