AHC: Naval Ram primary Weapon

Thucydides

First: I dare you to say that HMS Polyphemus is not one of the most badass looking ships ever.

Your challenge is, with a POD of after 1875 but before 1900, have the ram be one of, preferably the, primary weapon of warships in the late 19th century.
 
Fenrir_Angerboda

Fenrir_Angerboda

seems like a waste of Material and Time.

a ship that's primary weapon is Ramming others would probably be something that's either getting Frequent repairs, or sinking because of the damage done to it.

It's just not Practical.
 

Winston Smith

Banned
Fenrir_Angerboda said:
seems like a waste of Material and Time.

a ship that's primary weapon is Ramming others would probably be something that's either getting Frequent repairs, or sinking because of the damage done to it.

It's just not Practical.
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Quoted for truth. If I recall correctly, only one ship was ever sunk with a ram. Accidently.
 

Mike Stearns

I agree. I could see bow rams being kept as a last dtich weapon, but that's all.

If your timeframe was pre-1850, then I could see someone possibly building something along the lines of a Roman trireme, but I don't know how effective that would be. By that point ship hulls were upwards of two feet think in places.
 
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Elfwine

Mike Stearns said:
I agree. I could see bow rams being kept as a last dtich weapon, but that's all.

If your timeframe was pre-1850, then I could see someone possibly building something along the lines of a Roman trireme, but I don't know how effective that would be. By that point ship hulls were upwards of two feet think in places.
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You'd need some fairly powerful steam engines, or oars...

And naval gunfire has become too effective by this point. Even if the ramming-as-a-tactic worked in its own right, what stops that from countering it?
 

RamscoopRaider

Donor
Elfwine said:
You'd need some fairly powerful steam engines, or oars...

And naval gunfire has become too effective by this point. Even if the ramming-as-a-tactic worked in its own right, what stops that from countering it?
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Well there was a brief fad with Rams in OTL 1870's and 1880's when most guns could not reliably penetrate the armor of battle ships and those that could took forever to reload, but this changfed quickly with gun development

What the OP needs is a pre 1870 divergence point that increases armor development while slowing gun development, barely possible but possible
 

Elfwine

RamscoopRaider said:
Well there was a brief fad with Rams in OTL 1870's and 1880's when most guns could not reliably penetrate the armor of battle ships and those that could took forever to reload, but this changfed quickly with gun development

What the OP needs is a pre 1870 divergence point that increases armor development while slowing gun development, barely possible but possible
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I'm not sure it really is possible. If armor develops, people will develop better guns to match it - unless rams prove really, really good.
 

RamscoopRaider

Donor
Elfwine said:
I'm not sure it really is possible. If armor develops, people will develop better guns to match it - unless rams prove really, really good.
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True but this was a brief period and getting rid of a few things and adding a few more could make it longer

Earlier Harvey Armor, later smokeless powder and interrupted Screw would make this period a bit longer as it would make any gun powerful enough take forever to reload until maybe 1900 or so, though 1890 is more likely

The torpedo must also be scuttled and never developed, or developed too late

Wonder if a spar torpedo could count as a pseudo ram
 

Elfwine

RamscoopRaider said:
True but this was a brief period and getting rid of a few things and adding a few more could make it longer

Earlier Harvey Armor, later smokeless powder and interrupted Screw would make this period a bit longer as it would make any gun powerful enough take forever to reload until maybe 1900 or so, though 1890 is more likely

The torpedo must also be scuttled and never developed, or developed too late

Wonder if a spar torpedo could count as a pseudo ram
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Well, the point is that even if you butterfly when those were discovered a bit, people will be looking to develop those things. That being butterflied would take super-effective rams.

I suppose you could have the challenge be met but the 20th century having "caught up" with OTL or thereabouts, if the discoveries are delayed enough, but that seems to be succeeding on a technicality rather than making rams preferable.

tallwingedgoat said:
I had a thread about this earlier this year. Ramming can be a very effective tactic if the ship is properly designed for it.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=184330&highlight=ram
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Ah yes, sailing rams. :eek:
 

Thucydides

I mean, the actual fad did only last for a decade or so, and with good reason. But I still can see navies developing quick, small-ish, ramming ships that sort of act like torpedo boats. In the heat of a battle with capital ships focusing on other capital ships it's entirely possible that these ships might find a use. Provided that the battle is in close-enough quarters.

Just a thought: The success of such ships might butterfly away dreadnoughts seeing as battleships actually have a use for their smaller guns.
 

Elfwine

Checkmate113 said:
I mean, the actual fad did only last for a decade or so, and with good reason. But I still can see navies developing quick, small-ish, ramming ships that sort of act like torpedo boats. In the heat of a battle with capital ships focusing on other capital ships it's entirely possible that these ships might find a use. Provided that the battle is in close-enough quarters.

Just a thought: The success of such ships might butterfly away dreadnoughts seeing as battleships actually have a use for their smaller guns.
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Would be interesting to read the arguments that would be made for and against in that context. I'd say big guns are still better, but its easier to justify an Anti-Ram battery (in the sense of adding AA guns).
 

wolf_brother

Banned
The Crimean War, or immediately, might be a good time for this. Armor was sufficiently thick on most ships that was able to prevent contemporary naval or coastal guns from having much effect, iirc. However the early ironclads were essentially floating batteries, and practically worthless in making maneuvers. A heavy forward armor scheme with a strong ram might be good defense against such a type of battleship.

For reference, this is the Lave, one of France's first ironclads, which was absolutely devastating against the Russians during the Battle of Kinburn.
FNLave1854.jpg


DevastationClassCrimeanWinter1855-1856.JPG


Even well after the American Civil War several ironclads still followed the floating battery scheme; below is the USS Cairo & CSS Palmetto State;

Uss_Cairo_h61568.jpg


CSSPalmettoState.jpg


Hitting such a ship at or below the water line with a piercing iron or steel ram would all but guarantee to sink the ship in question.
 

Alex1guy

Rams suddenly becoming a common naval weapon just doesn't make sense. Rams (While still used I understand) we're obsolete a long time ago in favor of cannons. It's like taking up swords when you have guns it's just not practical.
 

Fiver

Checkmate113 said:
IMO the one they put on the Virginia/Merrimack looked pretty secondary, it looked extremely tacked on.
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Which was good for the Confederates. If the ram hadn't broken off, the Virginia might have been pulled under by the sinking Cumberland.
 
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