AHC: NASA Wank

I suspect it was a combination of the Soviets suffering the tragedy of Salyut One and the US Space Program going into a coma post-Apollo 11 that discouraged the Soviets. For the Brezhnev Regime, it was all guns-guns-guns. His government made Reagan's military buildup (possible only due to Brezhnev madcap uncontrollable military spending) look like one put together in Mister Roger's Neighborhood. Mind, this is not commenting on the mega-$$$ the US spends today.

Being honest the entire "Moon-within-a-decade" program was never going to end with anything sustainable as that was out the window from the start. Which is a shame because the US did actually begin with a sustainable program in mind. It's more than a bit heartbreaking to consider the Saturn-1 could have been turned into a viable TSTO recoverable vehicle given a focus on a steady built up of capability rather than leaping to the Saturn-V and the focus of OTL Apollo program.

With a more close "race" would Brezhnev had the ability or will to push a Soviet Apollo program in the face of perceived American efforts?

Randy
 
Um, we ARE talking about sustaining life in Outer Space? I DID SAY "nothing in the mind of Man", not 'nothing in the mind of God'.:p Yes, I DO know about the fact that cosmic rays are stopped by our planetary atmosphere. Several miles DEEP planetary atmosphere.

But this is not exactly a practical means for using as radiation shielding when you are LEAVING said planetary atmosphere.
The atmosphere is also exceptionally low density, which is why it needs to be so thick. It shows that cosmic rays can be shielded against for biological purposes, and allows you to calculate the amount of material that's needed, which works out to about 1,000 grams per square centimeter of shielded area, or ten meters (1,000 centimeters) of water. The main problem with that is that it would be very expensive (hundreds of billions of dollars at current launch costs) to launch that much water into space, not that it couldn't be done or that it would pose any particular engineering difficulties. And that's a problem any space efforts would run into (and one which would be mitigated by a large, reusable spacecraft, too--you only have to launch that water once).

Anyways, even without any shielding at all you're only exposed to half a sievert per year of cosmic rays in free space, and half that much on a planetary surface. Not exactly the greatest for your health, but it won't immediately kill you or anything, just raise your risk of cancer and other aging-related diseases. Plenty of astronauts would go--have said they would go--even so, knowing those risks.

Its not impossible, provided you do the construction in outer space, where gravity is no problem. Oh wait...cosmic rays.:(
The best shielding materials are mostly liquids, which can be easily pumped. What problem? You just launch the habitat module without the shielding material onboard, then fill it up in space. It can all be done by robots with minimal if any human presence (take a look at operations around the ISS for an example, particularly the Progress missions).

Again though, such a vessel needs to be constructed in outer space. Which would require space construction and service dockyards in outer space. Which would mean people being exposed to the radiation dangers on said space dockyards for the many years it would take to construct them AND any deep space vessels they construct.
You mean...like the ISS? Which has been in space for sixteen years? And constantly crewed for fourteen?

You're also seriously misunderstanding what something like this would look like. Labor in space is extremely expensive, so there's a huge premium on doing as much on the ground as possible and automating everything else. An interplanetary spaceship would probably be "assembled" by docking or berthing separate, modular components together, then adding any fluids or other consumables if necessary, with only a small amount of in-space human labor mostly dedicated to checking out the spacecraft and setting up its habitat areas. There would not be any concerns about radiation sickness or permanent problems from bone or muscle loss, especially since orbital crews would probably be rotated if they were in orbit permanently, like ISS crews, instead of being sent up only as necessary.

Not to mention that those dockyards would have to be built in geo-synchronous orbit if we don't want to see them coming down before they (never mind any deep space ships) even finished being constructed.
Er...no. Never mind the fact that geosynchronous is very hard to reach, there's no problem with putting construction facilities in low Earth orbit. There are these things called "rockets" that can counteract atmospheric drag, you know? The ISS, which is at least as big as any "spaceyard" has, as noted, been in orbit for sixteen years just fine, and it's been largely complete for more than five without "coming down". The same goes for basically every space station. The only ones that have "come down" have been ones that were basically abandoned and left to orbitally decay on their own, which is obviously not something you would do to an operating "spaceyard".

Then there's the cost of the natural stress factors of a rotational drive system for the space stations/dockyards/deep space craft. If the astronauts/cosmonauts are feeling the gravity, so is everything else.:(
Rotational...drive system? You mean the rockets or electric motors you use to set them spinning? And, you know, we do have quite a bit of experience with building structures subject to those sorts of forces on Earth.

Artificial gravity is practical, it mostly hasn't been tried because the space stations people have actually built have been designed to study microgravity, which obviously a rotating station doesn't. It would be an obvious feature for an interplanetary spacecraft.
 
Have you read Kolyma's Shadow? It's got a bit of a different PoD and LV setup than what you seem to be laying out, but seems roughly similar, and of course, Nixonshead's great artwork. Definitely worth your time. :)

Finished, (should probably say "caught up with" :) ) Kolyma's Shadow and it's a really good read/TL, thanks nixonhead :)

Given all the background though of making the space-race a much closer run "tit-for-tat" back-and-forth my original question still stands. Would it be possible that the Soviets would be the ones to push for a leap-frog to the Moon or (IMO) would the "race" generally stagnate to Earth orbital missions for most of the 70s and 80s?

My initial "hope" was to introduce a Lenticular Apollo design but looking at it critically the original mission or the Apollo program was Earth orbital with the capability to lead to Lunar missions and any "lifting" vehicle would have more disadvantages than advantages in that kind of role.
(Much to the annoyance of wings-and-wheels folks everywhere I'm sure)

I can see something as far as a biconic or hypersonic lifting body but dragging all the "extra" equipment of a lifting landing vehicle to the Moon and back is going to cut far to much into an already limited LTO mission. Granted LEO and ferry missions I can butterfly away most disadvantages for a winged or lifting body vehicle but in "reality" there would have to be a corresponding "orbital-tug" to perform the various mission aspects that such designs could not do. And there in lies the rub as you have to justify a way to pay for more than one orbital vehicle.

And that doesn't even begin to deal with the REAL question of man-in-space once automated satellites and probes begin to outpace and outperform manned operations for anything BUT manned operations.

The one thing I've been able to work to given just some of the basic assumptions so far is with a much more capable Atlas as an initial LV its quite possible to have a small Skylab-type station by 1965 :)

Randy
 
Looks like I managed to "kill" another thread :)

On the other hand though, an interesting concept I've come across while studying up on the various possible PODs for a more robust NASA and/or space program is the SoD Wilson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Erwin_Wilson) decision in 1956 to give the Air Force primary responsibility for missiles with ranges over 200 miles (320km) which shorted out Army development of long-range ballistic missiles.

(This decision was reversed in 1957 but by then the Army IRBM program, Jupiter, was already in Air Force hands who were less than thrilled having to take over the "competitor" to their Thor missile)

Despite the work on Atlas being Air Force sponsored it pretty much languished in the back-ground to air-breathing cruise missiles until the 1953 "compromise" between Air Research and Development Command and Air Staff which produced at least SOME funding and support. It took several executive committees to get the Air Staff to place more emphasis on ballistic rather than glide or cruise missiles and the AF still was dragging their feet by the mid-1950s whereas the Army was actually employing and pushing rocket powered ballistic missiles as well as defensive missile development.

So as a POD what if: What would happen if VonBraun and company along with the Army get tasked with design, development, and deployment of the ICBM?

Randy
 
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