AHC: Mutch Stonger Netherlands

for a long time in the 17th century the Dutch army was neglected and eventually turned into militias (IIRC).

OK, but a country of 2 million people just cannot field the same amount of men like France could - unless it is totally dependent on mercennaries. So, granted, you could have a much more effective and larger Dutch army. But would it be sufficient?

The problem is that the southern Netherlands is a far more attractive part than the north west of Germany. Antwerp, Gent, Brugge, Ostend and Brussels are far richer and more interesting than whatever Munster, East Frisia, Bentheim etc can offer.

I totally agree that the Southern Netherlands are mor interesting. But I wouldn't brush of NW-Germany completely: NW Germany can provide additional manpower for the Dutch army.

The most important point, though, is that the Southern Netherlands will be the goal of French expansion, as they are interesting for France as well. If the Netherlands are united, this grants repeated warfare with France. If the Hapsburgs hold the Southern Netherlands, they will be the natural ally of the independent Netherlands, which might get additional manpower from the secure regions of NW Germany, which never experienced as much warfare as Belgium did IOTL. We should not forget that pretty much every war in Western Europe in the 17th or 18th century was fought in Belgium as well.
 
It all starts with a POD, are the XVII Netherlands united or already divided?
If the XVII Netherlands remain united, then I doubt that the Southern Netherlands will experience as much warfare than IOTL, but there probably will be some conflicts with France.
 
An other totaly wierd idea:D
If the Dutch somehow become to think they are the chosen people/true religion and you mix it with a bit of militairism, they expand there power with these fanatics. It could result in a very early version of total war. They would get as many children asap. I doupt many countries can resist a floud of zealoss highly drilled soldiers.
You'll need a very PoD.

It's probably from the outer cirkels of the ASB-space.:D
 
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An other totaly wierd idea:D
If the Dutch somehow become to think they are the chosen people/true religion and you mix it with a bit of militairism, they expand there power with these fanatics. It could result in a very early version of total war. They would get as many children asap. I doupt many countries can resist a floud of zealoss highly drilled soldiers.
You'll need a very PoD.

It's probably from the outer cirkels of the ASB-space.:D


Not as much as you might think... Make the Netherlands a Calvinist Theocracy (ala Calvin's Geneva) and give them a missionary mindset and you get what you described. I actually don't have that much trouble picturing it happening.
 
It all starts with a POD, are the XVII Netherlands united or already divided?
If the XVII Netherlands remain united, then I doubt that the Southern Netherlands will experience as much warfare than IOTL, but there probably will be some conflicts with France.
"Some conflicts" would be quite the understatement. That's the main problem with United Netherlands, the damn French poking at them so they can't fully concentrate on perfidious Albion.

However, the advantages still outweigh the disadvantages IMHO (more so with the XVII provinces staying united instead of reuniting after some time)

- The SN have a bigger population than the NN (up to the 1930s OTL)
- The SN stopped being filthy rich in the 17-18th centuries as compared to the 16th, this doesn't mean they were poor. In fact, they probably were still as rich or even richer than contemporary France, Germany and England (per capita)*

If the XVII Provinces stay united, we will have a filthy rich (slightly less than the UP in OTL per capita) state with more than double the population of the United Provinces. This should enable an army double the size of the OTL one or even bigger AND a somewhat bigger navy (+ 1/5 or 1/4 or so)
Add in the fact that France going to war raises the blood pressure in all European capitals and the Netherlands can be (almost) assured of the assistance of one or more of Spain, Austria and England against France.

In addition the English/British will have a much harder time in taking the Netherlands place as rulers of the seas. (IMNSHO, avoiding a personal union between the two as with William III OTL would be a great help as well)

To use all this potential however, there must be a fully centralised military and foreign policy, no stupid 5 admiralties f.e.


* Belgium Netherlands UK France(GDP/capita in 1990 $)
1500 875 761 714 727
1600 976 1381 974 841
1700 1144 2130 1250 910

This comes form an excel file I downloaded a few years back. The author is some British university professor who should know what he was doing. (ok, part of it will be very educated guessing)
Unfortunately, I can't remember his name nor the university!
 
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Xavier, also interesting info, which make good sense.
Something liket his could happpen if the Pacification of Gent of 1579 was sollid. How ever religious differences prevailed.
Concerning manning armies it was not such a problem to be a nation of just 2 milion souls. The Banking system of the UP was that advanced that next to the State army ( in time of war) so called contract armies were mustered. This were not just armies of uncontrolable merchenaries, but in most cases German nobles who had an armie and rented them out for long period. The Quality of them was remarkable high, for their era.

For example the army of the UP during the Spanish succesionwar was after France the Largest of europe and most soldiers were Dutch.

As I mentioned before there were some opportunities during the 16th century, and 17th century or earlier during the reign of Charles V. He could enlarge it with Kleve, Mark, Berg, Julich and parts of Munster and Colone if he had some time left...
 
"Some conflicts" would be quite the understatement. That's the main problem with United Netherlands, the damn French poking at them so they can't fully concentrate on perfidious Albion.

That's the point.

And if we make the Netherlands larger/richer/closer to France, this should be quite an incentive for France to see the Netherlands as a primary target rather than the Hapsburgs/the Empire.
 
It was very easy for the rulers of the North Netherlands that the South was governed from Spain or Austria. It provided a buffer between the North N. and France.
So every ruler Republican confederation or absolute monarch would be happy with this status quo.
An other option of a more larger Netherlands would be a less successful reign of Louis XIV or an England which stuck in a (religious) dictature like the Commonwealth or a less ambitious and successful Prusia combined with some more ambitious rulers of the Netherlands
 
It was very easy for the rulers of the North Netherlands that the South was governed from Spain or Austria. It provided a buffer between the North N. and France.
So every ruler Republican confederation or absolute monarch would be happy with this status quo.
An other option of a more larger Netherlands would be a less successful reign of Louis XIV or an England which stuck in a (religious) dictature like the Commonwealth or a less ambitious and successful Prusia combined with some more ambitious rulers of the Netherlands

Well like I said earlier, that all depends on the POD; by which I mean that this would be true after the separation of the Northern and Southern Netherlands. However if the XVII Netherlands manages to stay together, then this would be totally unacceptable. However this doesn't exclude the possibility of a disastrous peace settlement.

And about the comment of Monty Burns weren't the Southern Netherlands (part of the Spanish and later Austrian Habsburg empire) and the Dutch Republic a target of France already;). So OTOH a larger/richer Netherlands might be more capable than IOTL to defend their territory against France, especially since in such a scenario the Southern Netherlands wouldn't be just a province of a larger empire (so in a TL with a united XVII Netherlands that will have a higher priority). Which doesn't mean that France isn't a powerful and potentially dangerous neighbour.
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
"Some conflicts" would be quite the understatement. That's the main problem with United Netherlands, the damn French poking at them so they can't fully concentrate on perfidious Albion.

However, the advantages still outweigh the disadvantages IMHO (more so with the XVII provinces staying united instead of reuniting after some time)

- The SN have a bigger population than the NN (up to the 1930s OTL)
- The SN stopped being filthy rich in the 17-18th centuries as compared to the 16th, this doesn't mean they were poor. In fact, they probably were still as rich or even richer than contemporary France, Germany and England (per capita)*

If the XVII Provinces stay united, we will have a filthy rich (slightly less than the UP in OTL per capita) state with more than double the population of the United Provinces. This should enable an army double the size of the OTL one or even bigger AND a somewhat bigger navy (+ 1/5 or 1/4 or so)
Add in the fact that France going to war raises the blood pressure in all European capitals and the Netherlands can be (almost) assured of the assistance of one or more of Spain, Austria and England against France.

In addition the English/British will have a much harder time in taking the Netherlands place as rulers of the seas. (IMNSHO, avoiding a personal union between the two as with William III OTL would be a great help as well)

To use all this potential however, there must be a fully centralised military and foreign policy, no stupid 5 admiralties f.e.


* Belgium Netherlands UK France(GDP/capita in 1990 $)
1500 875 761 714 727
1600 976 1381 974 841
1700 1144 2130 1250 910

This comes form an excel file I downloaded a few years back. The author is some British university professor who should know what he was doing. (ok, part of it will be very educated guessing)
Unfortunately, I can't remember his name nor the university
!

Likely it's Jonathan Israel I read a similar claim in his book "The Dutch Republic: Its Rise, Greatness and Fall".
 
Well like I said earlier, that all depends on the POD; by which I mean that this would be true after the separation of the Northern and Southern Netherlands. However if the XVII Netherlands manages to stay together, then this would be totally unacceptable. However this doesn't exclude the possibility of a disastrous peace settlement.

And about the comment of Monty Burns weren't the Southern Netherlands (part of the Spanish and later Austrian Habsburg empire) and the Dutch Republic a target of France already;). So OTOH a larger/richer Netherlands might be more capable than IOTL to defend their territory against France, especially since in such a scenario the Southern Netherlands wouldn't be just a province of a larger empire (so in a TL with a united XVII Netherlands that will have a higher priority). Which doesn't mean that France isn't a powerful and potentially dangerous neighbour.
(plural remember, there are XVII of them after all:p)
True, as I said before, I think the balance would be positive, The Netherlands will likely never have to face the French on their own either.
It might lead to something like the Swedish allotment system, but with more than double the population. And much more money for additional standing and mercenary regiments.

And for the non-experts, if the Low Countries stay united*, Brabant and Flanders will be THE economic and cultural centre of The Netherlands, just as the Gods intended them to be. Defending it against France would be regarded as vital for the survival of the State.

*not necessarily united by the Valois Burgundians, I rather like my "indigenous" Brabantine option:cool:
 
Likely it's Jonathan Israel I read a similar claim in his book "The Dutch Republic: Its Rise, Greatness and Fall".
Interesting guy, but I think not, that excel file is about the entire world from 1 AD to present, GDP, GDP/capita and population, a real treasure. Lots of gaps outside of Europe and before the 19th century though.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
It's important to remember that before the later half of the 18th century capital was in many ways more important than population size for the military might. A unified Netherlands with the 1700 GDP/capita would be a lot more military powerful than poorer states with even the double population. Of course this changes through the 18th century, the Dutch Republic will lose ground through the century as in OTL thanks to the oligarchic nature of the Dutch state. So if we want to keep the Dutch strongest we need the unified Netherland keeping the oligarchic republic through the 17th century only to shift to a absolutist regime in the early 18th century and moving back to parliamentaric rule when the industrialisation begins.
 
(plural remember, there are XVII of them after all:p)
True, as I said before, I think the balance would be positive, The Netherlands will likely never have to face the French on their own either.
It might lead to something like the Swedish allotment system, but with more than double the population. And much more money for additional standing and mercenary regiments.

And for the non-experts, if the Low Countries stay united*, Brabant and Flanders will be THE economic and cultural centre of The Netherlands, just as the Gods intended them to be. Defending it against France would be regarded as vital for the survival of the State.

*not necessarily united by the Valois Burgundians, I rather like my "indigenous" Brabantine option:cool:

Well XVII is actually a kind of symbolic number and there are different lists about which territories of the Netherlands they exactly refer to (this could change); which doesn't change the fact that (I now see, after rereading my post) I made a mistake:eek:.

I'm from North Brabant, what do you think;)?
 
One option to get a larger ( teritorial) Netherlands is one POD during the age of the Dukes of Burgundy. Lets assume, beside all his other things, Charles the Bold aquired the Ducy of Gelre but as well the Counties of Cleve, Julich, Mark, Berg and Groningen, Frisia ans East Frisia. Just before his dead on the Battle field he brings them administrative together.
History will have its course until Emperor Charles V, he binds this now called Burgundic ring, administrative more together, with more central power. He comes in collision with the Bishop of Munster, for what ever reasons. Giving Charles V an opportunity to wage a short successful war against the Bishop, with as result a large portion of the Bishopric of Munster and Cologne become a part of the Netherlands.
This now much larger Netherlands, now compromising almost all the Low Countries will revolt against the successor of Charles V. History will have its course again, resulting in a secession of the Netherlands of their King by who reign by the grace of God. Only this time this republic will be larger or compromising all the Low Countries.

Just a thought.
 
Here a map of how this larger Burgundian Cirlce have looked like in 1566.
Brussel will be the chosen centre of administration, in an attempt to administrate and subdue all these states together. Just as in OTL.
The ducy of Gelre, Cleve and Julich and the counties of Mark and Berg are incorporated and angored into this ''state'' earlier by the Burgunian Dukes.
Emperor Charles V ad the prince Bishoprich of Cologne and part of Munter ( up o the river Ems) and the county of Bentheim to this realm after a dispute with the Prince Bishop of Munster

465px-Low_Countries_Locator_Berg_svg.png
 
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