AHC: Muslim Turks conquer Constantinople and some of Balkans before 1200 AD

[raharris1973]

May bet is on the Seljuk state of Rum to be more successful. Maybe less manpower than the Greater Seljuk State but more centralised in Anatolia and thus more focus on Thrace and Bulgaria.

What would we call it? The Qutulmishid Empire? That's a mouthful.

 

[Byzantion]

Maybe a similiar scenario like Bosnia ( although Christianity wasn't deeply rooted there before unlike Bulgaria in the 12 th Century I suppose)? Greece and the Balkan nations hadn't been converted fully, because the Ottomans wanted taxes from the conquered subjects. But there had been Muslim populations in all of them.There had been also a high percentage of Muslim Bulgarians until the 20th Century in Bulgaria. They are also reffered to as Turks or Pomaks. Maybe a different religious missionary approach of non Ottomans Turks towards conquered subjects leads to Muslim Bulgarians. In this case other surrounding ethnic groups in the Balkans would be also converted.

Okay, i think it was the original Bulgars which Had been spoken of.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

What would we call it? The Qutulmishid Empire? That's a mouthful.

I guess... or just Seljuk Empire or so. After all, they're still the Seljuks.

 

[raharris1973]

No Crusades. The First Crusade especially helped turn the tide in favor of the Romans for a while.

Let's try this on for size, with a PoD of No Crusades from the 1090s related to a period of lethargic Popes in Europe, and continued Seljuk waxing, even into Europe.

Blue represents the OTL history of Ottoman expansion and beginnings of contraction in Europe. Now, in this ATL situation of continued Turkish momentum through the 12th century (and beyond) it would not and could not match the Ottoman schedule exactly, which is what is represented in red. I could only just squeeze in the fall of Constantinople before 1200. But, I figure this gives a rough estimation of when the Turks could conceivably build from one conquest to the next, give or take some years.

So the idea is the Seljuks first make it across Gallipolli in 1101 and take Constantinople in 1199. From there I project in red Seljuk expansion.

Green represents other OTL events, not related to the the Turks, of significance, like the Mongol invasions and the Black Death.

Conceivably, the timing of the Mongol invasion of Central Europe could soften up the Hungarians enough so that Turks established in the Balkans could exploit this and conquer them.

An interesting facet is that the Golden Horde is already set up and influencing Eastern Europe, and, I forgot to add, converts to Islam in 1313.

And Lithuania is still pagan at this time.

Perhaps in this TL, after the Black Death strikes, the early Turks, or at least Islam, get further into Europe. For example, Poland was smaller, weaker and fragmented for a lot of the 1200s and early 1300s, and Lithuania might convert to Islam and ally with the Turks and the Horde.

 

[inawarminister]

Hmm, there would be less Turkification of the Anatolian peninsula, so not as much excess manpower for this early Seljuk Imperatorlugu.
Buuut the Slavs should be less Christianised and without a conflation of Turk and Muslim... The Balkans and East Europe would be very fun.

Also, is there going to be any major power in late 14th century Central Europe? the HRE was already decentralising by this time right, and the Austrians Habsburgs haven't risen yet? After the Black Plague, we could have Turkish adventures to beyond the Alps?

Also Muslim Lithuanians and Golden Horde* Mongols could be very fun too.

 

[raharris1973]

Hmm, there would be less Turkification of the Anatolian peninsula, so not as much excess manpower for this early Seljuk Imperatorlugu.
Buuut the Slavs should be less Christianised and without a conflation of Turk and Muslim... The Balkans and East Europe would be very fun.

Also, is there going to be any major power in late 14th century Central Europe? the HRE was already decentralising by this time right, and the Austrians Habsburgs haven't risen yet? After the Black Plague, we could have Turkish adventures to beyond the Alps?

Also Muslim Lithuanians and Golden Horde* Mongols could be very fun too.

Indeed it could be fun, In a jihadi sort of way.

 

[water123]

You're gonna need a bit more tech before Constantinople falls. On one hand, once gunpowder is in the area, it's a matter of time before someone says "hey, so, what if we took this boom boom juice and tried to launch stuff with it." On the other hand, unless you can get a stronger alchemy tradition in the middle east, it will be kind of hard for them to go and actually make it on their own.

 

[raharris1973]

You're gonna need a bit more tech before Constantinople falls. On one hand, once gunpowder is in the area, it's a matter of time before someone says "hey, so, what if we took this boom boom juice and tried to launch stuff with it." On the other hand, unless you can get a stronger alchemy tradition in the middle east, it will be kind of hard for them to go and actually make it on their own.

There's no way Turks can't replicate the Crusaders feat of OTL 1204 in the late 1100s then in your view?

 

[Byzantine fanatic]

Pretty straightforward, how could the Seljuks, or another succeeding Turkish Muslim regime, conquer Constantinople on a more than 200 year accelerated schedule?

Chaka Bey, also sometimes called Tzachas, was a Turkish leader who ruled Smyrna in the 1080s and 90s. He built a powerful fleet and fought several naval battles against Alexios Komnenos. His aim was nothing less than to secure the throne in Constantinople. Had he succeeded, the Turks could have been ruling the whole area by 1091.

There is an excellent video about him here:

 

[ByzantineCaesar]

There's no way Turks can't replicate the Crusaders feat of OTL 1204 in the late 1100s then in your view?

1204 wasn't as much a feat as an absurdly lucky break. The Crusaders wouldn't have had a shot if there had been someone actually competent to organize the defense of Constantinople. The city fell not because of Crusader ingenuity, but because Byzantine military leadership at the time was just that bad. Anyone can take Constantinople if it's only defended by a ridiculous garrison and commanded by imbeciles. Of course, the fact that the Crusaders had a Venetian fleet, probably the best naval force at the time, also helped at assaulting the sea walls. The Turks don't have a chance at replicating Venetian sailoring and shipbuilding, however.

 

[raharris1973]

Chaka Bey, also sometimes called Tzachas, was a Turkish leader who ruled Smyrna in the 1080s and 90s. He built a powerful fleet and fought several naval battles against Alexios Komnenos. His aim was nothing less than to secure the throne in Constantinople. Had he succeeded, the Turks could have been ruling the whole area by 1091.

There is an excellent video about him here:

Thanks - great video. I kept hearing the pronunciation of Tzachas as "Jackass" but I wonder if he'd won if he'd been considered the founder of the "Jackassid" Byzantine dynasty or the "Jackassid Sultate"

He seems like a good precocious conqueror or Constantinople, or at least somebody who could get a Turkic state going in Thrace and the Balkans.

Of course holding it would be a huge challenge, but it would be interesting if he did (or even if he did not for long).