Pretty straightforward, how could the Seljuks, or another succeeding Turkish Muslim regime, conquer Constantinople on a more than 200 year accelerated schedule?
AHC: Muslim Turks conquer Constantinople and some of Balkans before 1200 AD
- Thread starter raharris1973
- Start date
Pretty hard. There are no cannons to bombard the wals as in the 15th century.
Bayezid I had besieged the city without the artillery Mehmed II had. But he besieged it for years and had the Balkans to defend his back.
So... either the Turks or Muslims conquer Thrace and Bulgaria before the siege or it is as good as impossible without artillery.
It fell in the Fourth Crusade without cannons. The real key is getting Turks across the Aegean post-Manzikert. Ensure a continued nosedive of imperial fortunes - Alexios or his less competent TTL replacement fails at every turn, meaning Normans and Pechengs are rampaging through the Balkans and Anatolia is lost for good. Then someone makes a fatal mistake and invites the Turks across the Hellesponte to quash the Norman threat and the Turks just dont ever leave.
Planet of Hats
Donor
I feel like you've read my timeline.
OP: You're not taking down the walls of Constantinople through conventional means until the invention of cannon or the adoption of ships by the Turks. However, some of the Seljuks were beginning to experiment in shipcraft. You could roll with a more successful Tzachas of Smyrna, even; OTL he built a fleet with the help of Christian craftsmen. He managed to capture a lot of Aegean islands and was even planning to besiege Constantinople with an army of Pechenegs before the Greek navy smacked him back to Smyrna and scuttled his fleet. The Seljuk governor of Nicaea also tried to create a fleet, with much less success. Most of these attempts happened during the breakup of the Seljuk Empire; if the Seljuks hold together into the 1090s and keep their foot on the neck of Rome, and if the Greeks have leadership less competent than the House of Komnenos, you could end up with maritime Seljuks attacking the sea walls.
Option B: Super-Pechenegs overrunning the Balkans and attacking Constantinople overland from the Thracian side.
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Didn't Tzachas convert to Christianity in order to attain more support from certain sectors of the Byzantine aristocracy, though? I could easily see him becoming another emperor.I feel like you've read my timeline.
OP: You're not taking down the walls of Constantinople through conventional means until the invention of cannon or the adoption of ships by the Turks. However, some of the Seljuks were beginning to experiment in shipcraft. You could roll with a more successful Tzachas of Smyrna, even; OTL he built a fleet with the help of Christian craftsmen. He managed to capture a lot of Aegean islands and was even planning to besiege Constantinople with an army of Pechenegs before the Greek navy smacked him back to Smyrna and scuttled his fleet. The Seljuk governor of Nicaea also tried to create a fleet, with much less success. Most of these attempts happened during the breakup of the Seljuk Empire; if the Seljuks hold together into the 1090s and keep their foot on the neck of Rome, and if the Greeks have leadership less competent than the House of Komnenos, you could end up with maritime Seljuks attacking the sea walls.
Option B: Super-Pechenegs overrunning the Balkans and attacking Constantinople overland from the Thracian side.
Planet of Hats
Donor
I can't find reference to him doing so, but anything's possible. Not all the Turks were Muslim, even after the invasion of Anatolia. But in a situation where the Seljuks remain more stable and more firmly in control of Anatolia, he could be utilized not just as himself but in service of the Seljuks, who would be Muslim.
In the Fourth Crusade, the Crusaders were already in town.
Ar
Around 10-15% of the Seljuk Turks migrating became Christian. That is a decent share.
Around 10-15% of the Seljuk Turks migrating became Christian. That is a decent share.
Maybe a similiar scenario like Bosnia ( although Christianity wasn't deeply rooted there before unlike Bulgaria in the 12 th Century I suppose)? Greece and the Balkan nations hadn't been converted fully, because the Ottomans wanted taxes from the conquered subjects. But there had been Muslim populations in all of them.There had been also a high percentage of Muslim Bulgarians until the 20th Century in Bulgaria. They are also reffered to as Turks or Pomaks. Maybe a different religious missionary approach of non Ottomans Turks towards conquered subjects leads to Muslim Bulgarians. In this case other surrounding ethnic groups in the Balkans would be also converted.
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I think mostly yes. Maybe some have also ancestors from other parts of the Ottomans Empire also.
Turkish Constantinople pretty much requires Turkish Balkans (at the least Bulgaria and Thrace I think) and a lot of luck. Now the interesting question is what happens next, and if they can hold it- since this is, presumably, contemporaneous with the Crusades movement, I think Constantinople would be a ready target for the Latins in place of Jerusalem, and given Turkish infighting and its proximity (to say nothing of probable aid from the Greek Christians, who would be much more amenable to the Latins since this is still relatively early in the Schism and before the Fourth Crusade I dare say that they would take it.
All in all this could lead to a wildly divergent Christianity with the Greek Church at least partially re-incorporated into Catholicism.
All in all this could lead to a wildly divergent Christianity with the Greek Church at least partially re-incorporated into Catholicism.
A Turkish Thrace is not a problem. I never said Constantinople has to be the first spot in Europe that Turks take.
Interesting - I can see the argument for that:
How would you complete this alternate historic equation?
(Turkish victory at Manzikert 1071) minus (Western Crusades from 1096 to 1203) = (Turks take Thrace in year XXXX) and (Turks take Constantinople in year YYYY)
What is the value of XXXX?
What is the value of YYYY?
Also, would it still be a Seljuk Sultanate ultimately crossing into Europe, or a successor state like the Sultantate of Rum (Iconium), or yet another Turkish successor regime?
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May bet is on the Seljuk state of Rum to be more successful. Maybe less manpower than the Greater Seljuk State but more centralised in Anatolia and thus more focus on Thrace and Bulgaria.