Kapitan-Heneral
What PODs would make the Roman Empire adopt Islam as its religion instead of Christianity?
Sulemain
Banned
Well, considering Islam came a long while after Christianity, and was considered a threat to the by then very heavily Christianised Empire, it's not very plausible.
It won't be Roman Empire adopting Islam as much as Islam absorbing Rome (Byzantium, that is) the way she absorbed Persia.
Indeed.
I think it's almost impossible to have this scenario directly happen, so your best bet is to go with what OTL happened with the Ottomans: an Islamic dynasty conquering Rome/Constantinople, adopting a few elements of imperial ceremonial and administration, and then adopting "Roman Emperor" as one of it's titles. Just typing this now makes me think we're going to get into one of those daft debates about whether the Ottomans were literally the continuation of the Roman state...
You can probably get a "better than Ottoman" scenario by mirroring what happened in Iran. That is, a complete Arab conquest of the Roman Empire, followed by a cultural Graeco-Roman conquest of the Arabs and Islam. Although, seventh century Islam is so fluid and hazily defined that this "Muslim" Roman Empire might not look particularly Muslim to our eyes: I'd imagine lots of figurative imagery and a strong role for Christian ceremonies and Christian saints at the very least.
I'd say, no more then Zoroastrian elements were passed to Islam IOTL.
Well, Zoroastrian elements were passed on to OTL Islam: although none immediately spring to mind.
Etto Zero elements were passed to either two school of Islam, Sunni and Shia, if you reffer to the mystics Suffi, they are that, mystics who depending if they are sincretist or not, that is other issue.
Plus Islam is about Absolute Monotheist, if they got into the greco-roman strtucture you can expcent early iconoclast and most ehmpahiss Isa/Jesus(Peaco for him) as prophet
Well if you believe a few Islamic traditions Heraclius actually did convert to Islam... a Milvian Bridge scenario is much more unlikely here than with Constantine, but maybe the shock and fury of the Arab conquests could have prompted a conversion to Islam had a strong leader taken such a bold step. It's probably not as far-fetched as some might think considering OTL the iconoclast movement was an imitation of Islam's prohibitions on representing the divine.
Then again, of course, the ERE's identity was heavily tied up with being Christian, especially so after centuries of conflict with the non-Christian Sassanids... if Islam could yield theologically accept the possibility of Jesus being the Son of God, the likelihood of Byzantine conversion would increase greatly.
As for the Ottomans emphasizing more their 'Roman' heritage, you'd probably have to butterfly al-Ghazali's ideas away and thus have Muslim philosophy still be based out of ancient Greek philosophy.
Then again, of course, the ERE's identity was heavily tied up with being Christian, especially so after centuries of conflict with the non-Christian Sassanids... if Islam could yield theologically accept the possibility of Jesus being the Son of God, the likelihood of Byzantine conversion would increase greatly.
As for the Ottomans emphasizing more their 'Roman' heritage, you'd probably have to butterfly al-Ghazali's ideas away and thus have Muslim philosophy still be based out of ancient Greek philosophy.
Mookie
Banned
Its impossible to get Jesus as son of God in Islam. It goes against basic teachings of Islam. If Jesus is his son then he is a God. Then there are 2 Gods. Thus its not monotheism. If God can be born and created is there a creator of Jesus's father?
Arguably you could say that Jesus was a "son of God" but only in the sense that all humans are "children of God." There are a few groups in Islam that are more amenable to ambiguities with the whole "monotheism" thing. For instance, some Sufi Muslims often venerate saints, which their critics deride as polytheistic. Another way to look at it is that Jesus is a manifestation of God on Earth in the same sense that all of nature is a manifestation of God. The part about all nature being a manifestation of God is already a position argued by some Sufi orders but not accepted by many other Muslims. You could even get a splinter group similar to the Ahmadiyya today, which claim beliefs considered heretical to mainstream Muslims yet still claim themselves to be Muslims, and have that group become the religion of the Byzantines.
The issue nonetheless is getting the Byzantines to convert to Islam. In most cases of Islamification I know of, the state in question was conquered and then Islam eventually became the majority religion. But if the Romans are conquered, they probably won't be considered Romans anymore (unless the Ottomans count, in which case forget everything), and they won't voluntarily convert to Islam while they are constantly warring the Caliphate. However, the Byzantines could potentially warm up to Islam if they somehow became economically dependent on trade with Islamic states and eventually Islam spreads in Byzantium via trade, like Islam in Indonesia.
Muslim here, Jesus/ISA(Peace for Him), is a Prophet but a human, a divine origin human(like Adan) but a Human, that is that clear as crystal for all muslim(except some fridge groups)
Fridge groups? I know it's hot in much of the Muslim world, but venerating refrigerators seems a bit extreme.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
But yeah, It's a shame that a Muslim Rome is almost impossible, because any timeline based on the premise would have a perfect title practically handed to it.
Sorry sometimes my english fail to me....
Umm which one is that one? would be interesting to hear it
No need to apologize, it's fine.
And thinking a bit more, it isn't actually a very good title, so never mind that.
People seem to assume, despite Persian and Egyptian examples, that Islam will become literally semi-Orthodox Christian with icons, masses and saints had Byzantium fallen to Caliphate's machination. That just comes straight out of naive whim. I would say the marks will be more subtle, but how exactly ?
Persia gave Islam 99 names of God, Fiqh and Sufism IOTL. And even with Byzantine resisted initial Islamic conquest, we still saw salat and adoption of Classical Greek philoshophies into Islam. What will add up ? I guess it needs to be pointed out that with the absence of Islam, means the absence of an (eastern) christian contender to Islam. How will it change to relations and polemics between Islam and Christianity ?
Thoughts ? I'm not saying there won't be syncretism and all kinds of hijinks, but for orthodoxy we will assume the conservative yet if possible, ground breaking kind of change, as how fiqh and sufism proved to be.
Persia gave Islam 99 names of God, Fiqh and Sufism IOTL. And even with Byzantine resisted initial Islamic conquest, we still saw salat and adoption of Classical Greek philoshophies into Islam. What will add up ? I guess it needs to be pointed out that with the absence of Islam, means the absence of an (eastern) christian contender to Islam. How will it change to relations and polemics between Islam and Christianity ?
Thoughts ? I'm not saying there won't be syncretism and all kinds of hijinks, but for orthodoxy we will assume the conservative yet if possible, ground breaking kind of change, as how fiqh and sufism proved to be.