AHC: Muslim China

A longer and stronger Mongol Empire where the Yuan Dynasty converts to Islam like one of the other Khanates did. There would also be reasons to do so in order to help foster trade along the Silk Road and in the Indian Ocean trade routes.
 
It wouldn't actually be that hard to have a Muslim China in my opinion, and it requires no crazy hordes/rampaging Arabs to impose. Islam in China has existed since the 8th Century, and many important Chinese were Islamic (Zheng He of the Ming Dynasty, for example, as were a large number of early Ming generals).

But let's have the most recent scenario, I think, that is possible before 1900:

1. 1837. Hong Xiuquan returns to his native village near Canton, dejected after failing his exams for the second time. But instead of meeting a Protestant missionary OTL, he meets a Panthay (e.g. a Muslim from Yunnan). Said Panthay converts Hong to Islam.

2. Arriving back at his native village, Hong falls into an extreme sickness brought on by malaria. In his delirium, he "receives" a vision of Allah calling him to be the Final Imam, his task being to finish the conversion of the last pagan bastion on Earth, East Asia.

3. Swept up with zeal, Hong employs his immense talents in the service of Islam, creating the "Allah-Worshiping Society". With religious networks that are well-established in China, and not carrying the stain of the "foreign devils" that Christianity has, Hong's efforts are multiplied manifold, the poor of China's southwest flocking to his millennarian message.

4. Unlike in OTL, Hong does not have to flee persecution into the wildernesses of Guangxi; instead, under the patronage of rich Indian and Parsee traders, the Allah-Worshipping Society can lay down deep roots in the southern city of Canton/Guangzhou.

5. Qing fear of Hong increases and persecutions begin, only to spiral out of control as Muslims in other Chinese coastal cities (e.g. Quanzhou, Wenzhou) are caught up in the persecution as well, causing major civil unrest in the south. Hong see his chance and, reminding the Han Chinese of the fact that the Muslim Ming Generals Lan Yu and Chang Yuchun were crucial in throwing off the Mongol yoke, rises up in Canton in 1843.

6. A trickle becomes a flood - Muslims all over Southern China rise up in response to both Qing oppression following the Opium Wars and also for the unique chance to assist the Imam in converting China to the True Faith. Buoyed by Hong's insurgence, bandits, secret societies and all other disaffected peoples flock under the Taiping Salaam Heavenly Kingdom. Fortresses fall to Hong in quick succession: Kweilin, Changsha, Canton, Nanjing - before long, all land south of the Yangtze is wrested from the Qing.

7. With his rear secure, Hong and his fellow Kings can now concentrate Taiping forces on one axis of advance - the march up to Peking. Conversely, the Qing become more and more pressured as the Hui revolt in the West, the Dungans in Xinjiang/Mongolia (as they did OTL), and Western powers stay neutral as they potentially see the Taiping as a better alternative to the "decadent" Qing, even if they are reluctant to help Muslims. A pitched battle 3 miles south of Tianjin in 1851 seals the fate of the Qing, and Peking falls and the Qing retreat to Manchuria, where they will place themselves under the protection of the Russians.

8. Hong Xiuquan is now undisputed leader of China, Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia. Fueled with zeal, he declares that the Taiping war is not yet over and China can only be cleansed of the Manchu devil if they turn back to the classical Chinese traditions - which to him, is worship of the One True Allah (note that this actually was Hong Xiuquan's goal OTL, except it was his interpretation of the Christian God).

9. Taiping puritanicalism/propaganda is slow but steady, helped with an already large-existing population of Muslims in China. To speed up the conversion, Hong settles Huis, Dungans and Panthays into Central China, as well as inviting Malay and Middle Eastern missionaries into the Taiping Kingdom. Progress is uneven and in some cases extremely violent - such as in the forced conversion of Tibet and Mongolia - but in most cases, change comes gradually and begrudgingly. In a few generations, a slim majority in China follow the Muslim faith, with more joining every day.
 
It wouldn't actually be that hard to have a Muslim China in my opinion, and it requires no crazy hordes/rampaging Arabs to impose. Islam in China has existed since the 8th Century, and many important Chinese were Islamic (Zheng He of the Ming Dynasty, for example, as were a large number of early Ming generals).

But let's have the most recent scenario, I think, that is possible before 1900:

1. 1837. Hong Xiuquan returns to his native village near Canton, dejected after failing his exams for the second time. But instead of meeting a Protestant missionary OTL, he meets a Panthay (e.g. a Muslim from Yunnan). Said Panthay converts Hong to Islam.

2. Arriving back at his native village, Hong falls into an extreme sickness brought on by malaria. In his delirium, he "receives" a vision of Allah calling him to be the Final Imam, his task being to finish the conversion of the last pagan bastion on Earth, East Asia.

3. Swept up with zeal, Hong employs his immense talents in the service of Islam, creating the "Allah-Worshiping Society". With religious networks that are well-established in China, and not carrying the stain of the "foreign devils" that Christianity has, Hong's efforts are multiplied manifold, the poor of China's southwest flocking to his millennarian message.

4. Unlike in OTL, Hong does not have to flee persecution into the wildernesses of Guangxi; instead, under the patronage of rich Indian and Parsee traders, the Allah-Worshipping Society can lay down deep roots in the southern city of Canton/Guangzhou.

5. Qing fear of Hong increases and persecutions begin, only to spiral out of control as Muslims in other Chinese coastal cities (e.g. Quanzhou, Wenzhou) are caught up in the persecution as well, causing major civil unrest in the south. Hong see his chance and, reminding the Han Chinese of the fact that the Muslim Ming Generals Lan Yu and Chang Yuchun were crucial in throwing off the Mongol yoke, rises up in Canton in 1843.

6. A trickle becomes a flood - Muslims all over Southern China rise up in response to both Qing oppression following the Opium Wars and also for the unique chance to assist the Imam in converting China to the True Faith. Buoyed by Hong's insurgence, bandits, secret societies and all other disaffected peoples flock under the Taiping Salaam Heavenly Kingdom. Fortresses fall to Hong in quick succession: Kweilin, Changsha, Canton, Nanjing - before long, all land south of the Yangtze is wrested from the Qing.

7. With his rear secure, Hong and his fellow Kings can now concentrate Taiping forces on one axis of advance - the march up to Peking. Conversely, the Qing become more and more pressured as the Hui revolt in the West, the Dungans in Xinjiang/Mongolia (as they did OTL), and Western powers stay neutral as they potentially see the Taiping as a better alternative to the "decadent" Qing, even if they are reluctant to help Muslims. A pitched battle 3 miles south of Tianjin in 1851 seals the fate of the Qing, and Peking falls and the Qing retreat to Manchuria, where they will place themselves under the protection of the Russians.

8. Hong Xiuquan is now undisputed leader of China, Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia. Fueled with zeal, he declares that the Taiping war is not yet over and China can only be cleansed of the Manchu devil if they turn back to the classical Chinese traditions - which to him, is worship of the One True Allah (note that this actually was Hong Xiuquan's goal OTL, except it was his interpretation of the Christian God).

9. Taiping puritanicalism/propaganda is slow but steady, helped with an already large-existing population of Muslims in China. To speed up the conversion, Hong settles Huis, Dungans and Panthays into Central China, as well as inviting Malay and Middle Eastern missionaries into the Taiping Kingdom. Progress is uneven and in some cases extremely violent - such as in the forced conversion of Tibet and Mongolia - but in most cases, change comes gradually and begrudgingly. In a few generations, a slim majority in China follow the Muslim faith, with more joining every day.

This could be an amazing timeline, and the ramifications afterword, China would now be the de facto leader of the Islamic world, being the largest Islamic country, and what could be the largest Islamic population in the world.
Would this Islamic China try prosetylse in other nation in east Asia? I assume they would try to form some sort of alliance with the South Asian Muslims, perhaps being a prime candidate for the Khilifat movement.
Also how would their relations be with the Ottomans be like?
Could we see an alliance between the sick men of Europe and Asia?!
 
You have to define what it does mean by a Muslim China.

The Chinese culture, which was Confucianism in essence, is very tolerant of other religions like Taoism, Buddhism mainly, or even Christianity in Ming to some extent.

The nation somehow does not really adopt any state religion, it is a concept that does not exist, in the history of China. Confucianism is adopted because of its convenience over governing the State. Religion is largely a private matter.

The Emperor may support a religion, mostly Taoism/ Buddhism, he may spent a lot of money on building temples, etc... but he somehow never enforced such will on his subjects.

Some emperors are famous for suppressing Buddhism, mainly for economic reasons.

Religious wars, religious persecution (other than few who suppress the monks for economic reasons) are unheard of or is never of the scale of Europe.

No one in China really cares about purity of a religion, the kind of religious argument of Christianity or Islam (topics like who should succeed Mohammad) can only be greeted with ridicule.

So, a Islamic State like those in Middle East would be nearly impossible. You may have some people adhering to Islam, but that's it. But Taoism and Buddhism have already entrenched in China during the rise of Islam, I don't really think there can be many Chinese Muslims.

The Mongols in China after Kublai Khan has nth to do with those in the West, they are also pretty famous for being religious tolerance, however they hated the Han Chinese.
 

Delvestius

Banned
My guess is Chinese Islam would become it's own branch after synthesis with Confucianism, which would happen easily, though I feel that it would push out the religious aspects of Buddhism and Taoism, though definitely not all of the philosophical ones.
 

SunDeep

Banned
It wouldn't actually be that hard to have a Muslim China in my opinion, and it requires no crazy hordes/rampaging Arabs to impose. Islam in China has existed since the 8th Century, and many important Chinese were Islamic (Zheng He of the Ming Dynasty, for example, as were a large number of early Ming generals).

But let's have the most recent scenario, I think, that is possible before 1900:

1. 1837. Hong Xiuquan returns to his native village near Canton, dejected after failing his exams for the second time. But instead of meeting a Protestant missionary OTL, he meets a Panthay (e.g. a Muslim from Yunnan). Said Panthay converts Hong to Islam.

2. Arriving back at his native village, Hong falls into an extreme sickness brought on by malaria. In his delirium, he "receives" a vision of Allah calling him to be the Final Imam, his task being to finish the conversion of the last pagan bastion on Earth, East Asia.

3. Swept up with zeal, Hong employs his immense talents in the service of Islam, creating the "Allah-Worshiping Society". With religious networks that are well-established in China, and not carrying the stain of the "foreign devils" that Christianity has, Hong's efforts are multiplied manifold, the poor of China's southwest flocking to his millennarian message.

4. Unlike in OTL, Hong does not have to flee persecution into the wildernesses of Guangxi; instead, under the patronage of rich Indian and Parsee traders, the Allah-Worshipping Society can lay down deep roots in the southern city of Canton/Guangzhou.

5. Qing fear of Hong increases and persecutions begin, only to spiral out of control as Muslims in other Chinese coastal cities (e.g. Quanzhou, Wenzhou) are caught up in the persecution as well, causing major civil unrest in the south. Hong see his chance and, reminding the Han Chinese of the fact that the Muslim Ming Generals Lan Yu and Chang Yuchun were crucial in throwing off the Mongol yoke, rises up in Canton in 1843.

6. A trickle becomes a flood - Muslims all over Southern China rise up in response to both Qing oppression following the Opium Wars and also for the unique chance to assist the Imam in converting China to the True Faith. Buoyed by Hong's insurgence, bandits, secret societies and all other disaffected peoples flock under the Taiping Salaam Heavenly Kingdom. Fortresses fall to Hong in quick succession: Kweilin, Changsha, Canton, Nanjing - before long, all land south of the Yangtze is wrested from the Qing.

7. With his rear secure, Hong and his fellow Kings can now concentrate Taiping forces on one axis of advance - the march up to Peking. Conversely, the Qing become more and more pressured as the Hui revolt in the West, the Dungans in Xinjiang/Mongolia (as they did OTL), and Western powers stay neutral as they potentially see the Taiping as a better alternative to the "decadent" Qing, even if they are reluctant to help Muslims. A pitched battle 3 miles south of Tianjin in 1851 seals the fate of the Qing, and Peking falls and the Qing retreat to Manchuria, where they will place themselves under the protection of the Russians.

8. Hong Xiuquan is now undisputed leader of China, Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia. Fueled with zeal, he declares that the Taiping war is not yet over and China can only be cleansed of the Manchu devil if they turn back to the classical Chinese traditions - which to him, is worship of the One True Allah (note that this actually was Hong Xiuquan's goal OTL, except it was his interpretation of the Christian God).

9. Taiping puritanicalism/propaganda is slow but steady, helped with an already large-existing population of Muslims in China. To speed up the conversion, Hong settles Huis, Dungans and Panthays into Central China, as well as inviting Malay and Middle Eastern missionaries into the Taiping Kingdom. Progress is uneven and in some cases extremely violent - such as in the forced conversion of Tibet and Mongolia - but in most cases, change comes gradually and begrudgingly. In a few generations, a slim majority in China follow the Muslim faith, with more joining every day.

Wow. If you turned this into a TL, I'd be subscribed to it, no question.
 
No one in China really cares about purity of a religion, the kind of religious argument of Christianity or Islam (topics like who should succeed Mohammad) can only be greeted with ridicule.

So, a Islamic State like those in Middle East would be nearly impossible. You may have some people adhering to Islam, but that's it. But Taoism and Buddhism have already entrenched in China during the rise of Islam, I don't really think there can be many Chinese Muslims.

You realize that there is in fact a very large Muslim minority in China today, right? There's nearly 20 thousand Muslims in modern China. Half of them are Hui, which is an ethnic group of formerly Han Chinese people who peacefully converted to Islam centuries ago. The Hui live everywhere in China. Many Hui believe themselves to have foreign ancestry from the Arabian and Central Asian merchants who inhabited China many centuries ago, but the foreign ancestry and influence is minuscule - Hui culture, including the language, cuisine, architecture, folk music, and folk dance, is nearly identical to Han culture. In fact, the cultural differences between the Hui and the Han are no greater than the cultural differences between Hui communities from different regions - Hui people from Guangzhou speak Cantonese and eat halal Cantonese food, while Hui people from northwestern China speak Mandarin and are famous for their spicy noodle dishes.

Furthermore, Hui people are pure about their Islamic practices. They follow the Koran, they follow Islamic dietary laws, they follow Islamic fasting times, and so on. Their mosques often resemble typical Chinese architecture, but that doesn't mean they mix their beliefs with Buddhism or Daoism. Some Hui have become secular, much as Muslims, Christians, and Jews in other countries have become secular, but those who practice are pretty devout.
 
You realize that there is in fact a very large Muslim minority in China today, right? There's nearly 20 thousand Muslims in modern China. Half of them are Hui, which is an ethnic group of formerly Han Chinese people who peacefully converted to Islam centuries ago. The Hui live everywhere in China. Many Hui believe themselves to have foreign ancestry from the Arabian and Central Asian merchants who inhabited China many centuries ago, but the foreign ancestry and influence is minuscule - Hui culture, including the language, cuisine, architecture, folk music, and folk dance, is nearly identical to Han culture. In fact, the cultural differences between the Hui and the Han are no greater than the cultural differences between Hui communities from different regions - Hui people from Guangzhou speak Cantonese and eat halal Cantonese food, while Hui people from northwestern China speak Mandarin and are famous for their spicy noodle dishes.

Furthermore, Hui people are pure about their Islamic practices. They follow the Koran, they follow Islamic dietary laws, they follow Islamic fasting times, and so on. Their mosques often resemble typical Chinese architecture, but that doesn't mean they mix their beliefs with Buddhism or Daoism. Some Hui have become secular, much as Muslims, Christians, and Jews in other countries have become secular, but those who practice are pretty devout.

I didn't know anything about that. That's really cool, actually.

Now how to get them to either come to power and be the sizable minority in control of China, have their population increase to having parity with non-Muslim with who they share power, or make them the majority population of China?
 
You realize that there is in fact a very large Muslim minority in China today, right? There's nearly 20 thousand Muslims in modern China. Half of them are Hui, which is an ethnic group of formerly Han Chinese people who peacefully converted to Islam centuries ago. The Hui live everywhere in China. Many Hui believe themselves to have foreign ancestry from the Arabian and Central Asian merchants who inhabited China many centuries ago, but the foreign ancestry and influence is minuscule - Hui culture, including the language, cuisine, architecture, folk music, and folk dance, is nearly identical to Han culture. In fact, the cultural differences between the Hui and the Han are no greater than the cultural differences between Hui communities from different regions - Hui people from Guangzhou speak Cantonese and eat halal Cantonese food, while Hui people from northwestern China speak Mandarin and are famous for their spicy noodle dishes.

Furthermore, Hui people are pure about their Islamic practices. They follow the Koran, they follow Islamic dietary laws, they follow Islamic fasting times, and so on. Their mosques often resemble typical Chinese architecture, but that doesn't mean they mix their beliefs with Buddhism or Daoism. Some Hui have become secular, much as Muslims, Christians, and Jews in other countries have become secular, but those who practice are pretty devout.

I think you mean 20 million, not 20 thousand.
 
Yeah i read there are between 20-30 million chinese muslims. Xinxiian borders tibet and half a dozen countries is mostly muslim.
 
Is there any conceivable way for Nurhaci to convert? Or for the Jurchen Manchus to convert in the early to mid 1500s?

Well it's going to be difficult given that nobody around them was even remotely Muslim at the time (well, maybe a few Yakuts, but that's hardly missionary material).

In addition, I'd expect conversion to Islam to seriously delay a lot of the Qing conquest, just because mass conversion is such a laborious task to undertake. Also, converting to such a stridently universal religion like Islam could be troublesome when it comes to maintaining the allegiance of the Mongol tribes - part of how the Qing exercised control over so many ethnicities is by 'appropriating their symbols' for themselves - i.e. being a patron of the lamas, which would obviously be close to apostasy in Islam.

That said, however, in their quest to subdue the Tarim Basin Qing Emperors quite regularly showed themselves to be patrons of Islam, refurbishing mosques and holy places as well as having the standard things like having imams recite prayers in their name.
 
Well it's going to be difficult given that nobody around them was even remotely Muslim at the time (well, maybe a few Yakuts, but that's hardly missionary material).

In addition, I'd expect conversion to Islam to seriously delay a lot of the Qing conquest, just because mass conversion is such a laborious task to undertake. Also, converting to such a stridently universal religion like Islam could be troublesome when it comes to maintaining the allegiance of the Mongol tribes - part of how the Qing exercised control over so many ethnicities is by 'appropriating their symbols' for themselves - i.e. being a patron of the lamas, which would obviously be close to apostasy in Islam.

That said, however, in their quest to subdue the Tarim Basin Qing Emperors quite regularly showed themselves to be patrons of Islam, refurbishing mosques and holy places as well as having the standard things like having imams recite prayers in their name.

If Jurchens ever had converted to Islam, it will be through Mongols (Jurchens were under Mongols control for 200 years). So in this case we can assume that Mongols itself converted to Islam.
So now you can have Muslim Yuan Dynasty which is later will be succeeded by Muslim Qing Dynasty. This should give large number of Muslim Chinese, especially Northern China. However I don't think China can be dominantly Muslim. (as one poster pointed out if Chinese really cared about religion at all).
 
Prevent Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and Hinduism or a Sooner Conversion of Persia into Islam and then Islam Expands into India and then into China and You Will Have a Muslim China and Japan too
 
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