AHC: Multiple Byzantine Successor States

[cimon]

I think that Trebizond OTL did do a little of both, making nice with Nicaea (particularly after N. had regained Constantinople) and making overtures with the Mongols. The latter was complicated by Trebizond's intrigues with Georgia if memory serves me right. Epirus was another matter. Nicaea and Epirus were very hostile towards the other.

Now,with an excellent piece of diplomacy we will make them staunch allies! they have to be,by clarifying their intended moves and cooparation;example:Nicaean navy and Marines help Epeirus with Serbs and Venetians,Epeirus helps Nicaeans in Estern Mediterranean...and the story continues...Avitus has to do the rest...

Avitus....you are conspiciously absent!may I ask why? let's here your thoughts for a change.Actually you will have to weave what ideas are given here:you can organise a frightful combination of actions here;not only in war but also in science,military inventions etc;a bit later Russia can be added to the alliance etc.it is in fact an almost quadruple Thread....

 

[imperialaquila]

Could you possibly carve a Greek-speaking Bulgar state out of Bulgaria, or at least a Bulgar state with a Greek-speaking nobility? I know very little about this period, but it seems easier than having Epirus conquer it.

So you would have Morea in OTL Greece, Nicea in western Anatolia, Trebizond in northeastern Anatolia and possibly Georgia or the Crimea, Epirus in Albania, Macedonia, and possibly Serbia, Bulgaria in Bulgaria, and a Grecified Latin Empire based around Constantinople and Thrace. Does this sound reasonable?

 

[cimon]

Could you possibly carve a Greek-speaking Bulgar state out of Bulgaria, or at least a Bulgar state with a Greek-speaking nobility? I know very little about this period, but it seems easier than having Epirus conquer it.

So you would have Morea in OTL Greece, Nicea in western Anatolia, Trebizond in northeastern Anatolia and possibly Georgia or the Crimea, Epirus in Albania, Macedonia, and possibly Serbia, Bulgaria in Bulgaria, and a Grecified Latin Empire based around Constantinople and Thrace. Does this sound reasonable?

The original question specifies 4(four) Greek states;as a result the Latin part ceases to exist as per OTL;we only have to swap Strategopoulos with someone else...

However,Nicaea wouldn't be confined in western Anatolia since Nicaea and Trebizond would link,covering the entire Asia Minor,and Nicaea would have to expand south.

 

[Avitus]

Now,with an excellent piece of diplomacy we will make them staunch allies! they have to be,by clarifying their intended moves and cooparation;example:Nicaean navy and Marines help Epeirus with Serbs and Venetians,Epeirus helps Nicaeans in Estern Mediterranean...and the story continues...Avitus has to do the rest...

Avitus....you are conspiciously absent!may I ask why? let's here your thoughts for a change.Actually you will have to weave what ideas are given here:you can organise a frightful combination of actions here;not only in war but also in science,military inventions etc;a bit later Russia can be added to the alliance etc.it is in fact an almost quadruple Thread....

My computer was acting strangely so I had to wipe its hard drive (after saving everything important on an external drive), which took a while. Now...

Cooperation between Nicaea, Epirus, and Trebizond would be interesting. I think that you would need to lesses the rivalry between Epirus and Nicaea first and foremost. I imagine that a good place to start would be by killing off Alexios III before he could do any damage to either of them as he did IOTL. After that, it would probably make it easier if Epirus eventually retakes Constantinople, simply because then the Bosporos can be a natural border which will help ease the tension between them. Trebizond was fairly content to avoid having a manifest destiny on Constantinople OTL, so I could see them going in another direction without too much difficulty.

I don't think that a Greek Bulgarian state is a real possibility, since their own language and culture was well established and by 1204 they were no longer a part of the ERE.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

My computer was acting strangely so I had to wipe its hard drive (after saving everything important on an external drive), which took a while. Now...

Cooperation between Nicaea, Epirus, and Trebizond would be interesting. I think that you would need to lesses the rivalry between Epirus and Nicaea first and foremost. I imagine that a good place to start would be by killing off Alexios III before he could do any damage to either of them as he did IOTL. After that, it would probably make it easier if Epirus eventually retakes Constantinople, simply because then the Bosporos can be a natural border which will help ease the tension between them. Trebizond was fairly content to avoid having a manifest destiny on Constantinople OTL, so I could see them going in another direction without too much difficulty.

I don't think that a Greek Bulgarian state is a real possibility, since their own language and culture was well established and by 1204 they were no longer a part of the ERE.

If you can keep Nicaea focussed on Anatolia that will be a big step to plausibility of multiple Greek states. It may have to do so at the expense of Epirus as their resources are finite. Epirus will have much to worry about from Bulgarians, Serbs, and the House of Anjou. Trebizond and Nicaea combining to take out minor Turkish states in Anatolia would be a must. Trebizond also needs to have access to a larger Greek or philo-Greek population.

 

[Magnum]

Ottoman Empire keeps both the legitimate, legal successor in Morea and the less than legitimate successor state in Trebizond as vassals, like they did with the Romanian principalities (mainly from 1601 onwards). Control is very tight, and most of the rulers are Greeks from Constantinople installed directly by the sultan.

Morea can be a Venetian puppet and maybe play each side off against one another for a while if it helps.

Eventually, the Ottomans partially collapse in the 19th century. Trebizond becomes the Russian proxy in the area while Morea gets to eat up a large part of mainland Greece and the Agean Islands.

There are no devastating wars in the 20th century in the region, and both states linger on.

This ok ?

 

[cimon]

Ottomans

Ottoman Empire keeps both the legitimate, legal successor in Morea and the less than legitimate successor state in Trebizond as vassals, like they did with the Romanian principalities (mainly from 1601 onwards). Control is very tight, and most of the rulers are Greeks from Constantinople installed directly by the sultan.

Morea can be a Venetian puppet and maybe play each side off against one another for a while if it helps.

Eventually, the Ottomans partially collapse in the 19th century. Trebizond becomes the Russian proxy in the area while Morea gets to eat up a large part of mainland Greece and the Agean Islands.

There are no devastating wars in the 20th century in the region, and both states linger on.

This ok ?

Ottomans do not come into the equasion at alllease notice the conditions and date on top.The Seljuks will be defeated by Nicaea and Trebizond at first and when their troubles start they will be overrun.We leave the Ottomans for the Mongols to the advantage of the Greeks.

 

[cimon]

If you can keep Nicaea focussed on Anatolia that will be a big step to plausibility of multiple Greek states. It may have to do so at the expense of Epirus as their resources are finite. Epirus will have much to worry about from Bulgarians, Serbs, and the House of Anjou. Trebizond and Nicaea combining to take out minor Turkish states in Anatolia would be a must. Trebizond also needs to have access to a larger Greek or philo-Greek population.

As I have proposed above,Bulgarians and Serbs will be dealt with not by Epeirus alone,but with a Nicaean army as well and Nicaean,and Trebizonian navies.

 

[cimon]

My computer was acting strangely so I had to wipe its hard drive (after saving everything important on an external drive), which took a while. Now...

Cooperation between Nicaea, Epirus, and Trebizond would be interesting. I think that you would need to lesses the rivalry between Epirus and Nicaea first and foremost. I imagine that a good place to start would be by killing off Alexios III before he could do any damage to either of them as he did IOTL. After that, it would probably make it easier if Epirus eventually retakes Constantinople, simply because then the Bosporos can be a natural border which will help ease the tension between them. Trebizond was fairly content to avoid having a manifest destiny on Constantinople OTL, so I could see them going in another direction without too much difficulty.

I don't think that a Greek Bulgarian state is a real possibility, since their own language and culture was well established and by 1204 they were no longer a part of the ERE.

Avitus,
1) To lessen the rivalry? that is why I gave Constantinople to Trebizond;
The city was captured due to Latin oversight by Stratigopoulos,it could be captured by someone else from Trebizond(a squadron of ships-a knight marine operation-gates opened by someone etc) Constantinople to the weaker(initially) will go a long way in aleviating tensions

2)Eliminate the Bulgarians completely;they were allowed in the empire by permission so it... can be revoked.spread the population in all three or four states,expel some north of the Danube(the war will eliminate many of them)

Anyway enemies are dealt with one by one.Promise assistance to Epeirus so it becomes the paramount power in the Balcans etc...
Create an incident or situation whereby Georgia passes to Trebizont....

 

[Magnum]

I assume we all know that in 1204 the 4th Crusade sacked Constantinople and broke the Byzantine Empire into three main successor states, Nicaea, Epirus, and Trebizond, as well as the little Crimean state of Theodoro. We've seen TLs where one of these states reforms the Byzantine Empire and survives to modern times, but what about a scenario in which more than one of these states survives into modern times as an independant polity? For this AHC, at least two of the successor states must survive until 2012 with a PoD no earlier than the fall of Constantinople in 1204. They are allowed to reclaim Constantinople. Bonus if you can find a way to keep all four.

Ottomans do not come into the equasion at alllease notice the conditions and date on top.The Seljuks will be defeated by Nicaea and Trebizond at first and when their troubles start they will be overrun.We leave the Ottomans for the Mongols to the advantage of the Greeks.

You were saying ?

 

[cimon]

You were saying ?

Precisely what I was saying Magnum! don't confuse the Seljuks with the Ottomans...(not very different,but different and different leadership) and they appeared later.

 

[Magnum]

Precisely what I was saying Magnum! don't confuse the Seljuks with the Ottomans...(not very different,but different and different leadership) and they appeared later.

A POD no earlier than a specific date doesn't imply it can't be later than said date. In this case, no earlier than 1204 means it can be any time after 1204, as late as 1453 even.

 

[cimon]

A POD no earlier than a specific date doesn't imply it can't be later than said date. In this case, no earlier than 1204 means it can be any time after 1204, as late as 1453 even.

I know exactly about implications and inuendos in English thank you;Avitus intention is clear from the discussion so far and to face the European invasion of the Mongols and achieve stabilization of Northern frontier,distruction of the Latins and the little Seljuk principalites in their period of distabilisation you need the time to start immediately.

 

[Avitus]

I know exactly about implications and inuendos in English thank you;Avitus intention is clear from the discussion so far and to face the European invasion of the Mongols and achieve stabilization of Northern frontier,distruction of the Latins and the little Seljuk principalites in their period of distabilisation you need the time to start immediately.

True, I was leaning towards the 1204 states, but Magnum's suggestion fits the bill, however I think that it would take more explaination than a handwave to have the Ottomans allow Trebizond to continue to exist. Morea is slightly more plausible, since they can potentially play the Ottomans and Italians off one another until they have an established niche or the Ottomans begin to fall apart, but Trebizond won't have that until Russia becomes a power in the Caucasus, which will be some time, and I have my doubts that they can just keep throwing beautiful women at the Ottomans until the 1600s.

 

[Magnum]

but Trebizond won't have that until Russia becomes a power in the Caucasus, which will be some time

Maybe they can play the Ottomans off a resurgent Timurid Empire, though that would possibly require the POD to be at least a few decades before 1453, probably prior to the 1430s when the Timurids lost control of their Anatolian and Caucasian lands.

and I have my doubts that they can just keep throwing beautiful women at the Ottomans until the 1600s

Why shouldn't that work ? Never underestimate the power of a beautiful woman

 

[cimon]

True, I was leaning towards the 1204 states, but Magnum's suggestion fits the bill, however I think that it would take more explaination than a handwave to have the Ottomans allow Trebizond to continue to exist. Morea is slightly more plausible, since they can potentially play the Ottomans and Italians off one another until they have an established niche or the Ottomans begin to fall apart, but Trebizond won't have that until Russia becomes a power in the Caucasus, which will be some time, and I have my doubts that they can just keep throwing beautiful women at the Ottomans until the 1600s.

Avitus,

Do I sound that I mean a...handwave? the Ottomans started very small when they placed themselves almost in Galata while Constantinople was suffering from civil strife and managerial chaos;It was the Byzantines who allowed their progress and not the ability of the Ottomans.(con)

Here we are talking about a very powerful Nicaea,a healthy Trebizont,that in common cause they will dismantle these small seljuk principalities that are by and large in a period of confusion,to put it mildly.Both states will expand their holdings in Anatolia(among many other things) and when the Ottomans will appear later(1300) they will have to meat a very different state of affairs and will be too weak to face.I haven't mentioned here an intended alliance with the Mongols of Nicaea and Trebizond as well as Epeirus.

Bear in mind that the seljuks can be driven out of Anatolia and many can be christianised(or rechristianized for some),both christian states will have augmented population improved and sofisticated veteran armies and bend on expansion.

I understand that we speak about powerful states capable of surviving in the 21st century,not turkish vassals that became independent from turkish nomads who had the incredible luck to face a group of weak seljuk Beylicks,a weak Byzantine empire,west in turmoil and the near east embroiled in introverted bickering.(some times history sounds like an AH turkish wank...)

So the challenge you have Avitus is that you have to progress Nicaea which wiill be confined to Asia mostly(save certain European islands) with Trebizond IN ALLIANCE to extend in all Anatolia and Georgia in the next 100 years and exterminate an insignificant bunch of nomads under Osman(probably) being allied to the Mongols,Nicaea stepping south to Syria for conquests and a Michael destroying the latins and and bulgarians ariving outside Constantinople,you decide who conquers it,and go on from there.

Don't forget that these four Christian states have to act in close alliance if they want to survive and arrive in present time.
and about someone mentioning D'Anzou I will ask him to recall the Sicilian Vespers and the fact that he he might be willing to face one not three states against him.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Avitus,

Do I sound that I mean a...handwave? the Ottomans started very small when they placed themselves almost in Galata while Constantinople was suffering from civil strife and managerial chaos;It was the Byzantines who allowed their progress and not the ability of the Ottomans.(con)

I'd give the Ottomans just a little more credit than that. Being able to capitalize on an opportune moment is an art of its own.... and they did.

 

[shakaka36]

I think you could do it... You just have to find a way to keep the Turks from getting their act together. Direct unbroken descent might be hard to work out, but a couple of culturally Greek, consciously Byzantine states in the Balkans, and a couple more in a balkanized Anatolia seems doable. An Epirus divided between an Albanian speaking North and Greek speaking South (and with a Greek speaking elite) would be an interesting alt-Belgium scenario going into the modern era.

Easy to see how you could save Trebizond, given the geography, but Nicaea might be the harder one to protect. If it is lucky, it can establish itself as a strong cross-straits politics entity (with or without restoring 'the empire'), but if it DOESNT manage that, I don't know how stable it's basic position is in the longer term.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Easy to see how you could save Trebizond, given the geography, but Nicaea might be the harder one to protect. If it is lucky, it can establish itself as a strong cross-straits politics entity (with or without restoring 'the empire'), but if it DOESNT manage that, I don't know how stable it's basic position is in the longer term.

Geography alone wouldn't save Trebizond and didn't OTL. Its diplomacy and having the financial resources to buy off threats or pay for mercenaries are what kept Trebizond alive as long as it did. Once it's resources were hit by changing trading patterns and one strong polity too many appeared, it was game over for the Megas Komnenos.

 

[cimon]

Geography alone wouldn't save Trebizond and didn't OTL. Its diplomacy and having the financial resources to buy off threats or pay for mercenaries are what kept Trebizond alive as long as it did. Once it's resources were hit by changing trading patterns and one strong polity too many appeared, it was game over for the Megas Komnenos.

This,I believe is not OTL;you don't agree with the precondition that both Nicaea and Trebizond should act together unlike OTL?

With the entire length and breath of Anatolia divided between those two states-not necessarily equally- (having also Georgia in the Plan for conquest,amalgamation or what have you...) don't you think that the chances of intruders are minimized?

An alliance with the Mongols of these states,perhaps Theodoro accepting terms and becoming a vassal(for its benefit) while the Mongols advane west in Ucraine,and,bypassing Anatolia,invade Messopotamia with the known results,is not going to help these to states to progress faster,and Mihael to become predominant in the Balcans?