I assume we all know that in 1204 the 4th Crusade sacked Constantinople and broke the Byzantine Empire into three main successor states, Nicaea, Epirus, and Trebizond, as well as the little Crimean state of Theodoro. We've seen TLs where one of these states reforms the Byzantine Empire and survives to modern times, but what about a scenario in which more than one of these states survives into modern times as an independant polity? For this AHC, at least two of the successor states must survive until 2012 with a PoD no earlier than the fall of Constantinople in 1204. They are allowed to reclaim Constantinople. Bonus if you can find a way to keep all four.
AHC: Multiple Byzantine Successor States
- Thread starter Avitus
- Start date
Mine starts considerably later than 1204, by that time Epirus is long since dead, and Nicaea has reconquered the capital while losing Asia, while Trebizond is really not capable of much (which wasn't a given while David Komnenos was alive).
So, not not happy with mine, just curious as to how someone else would go about it with an earlier PoD
Difficult. One I can just see, centered in the Peloponnese, after booting out the Latins. A Despotate of the Morea-wank. More than one? Need to tame or play off those rapacious European countries to the North and West. And if one in Anatolia, going to need a POD that keeps the Turkish states fractured and keeps the Ottomans less dominant or butterflied away.
Here's my solution and I'm sticking to it!
Ottoman Empire is the Roman successor state
plus a Greek state in Greece.
Here's my solution and I'm sticking to it!
Ottoman Empire is the Roman successor state
plus a Greek state in Greece.
Yes,I have a solution for you Avitus but you have to think quite ruthlessly and with those days standards(not today's) about all four,but before I tell you,it is going to be quite weird to have four very strong European powers
with common borders,with the same language,backround,traditions etc,not been able to unite by 2012:
1) Trebizond,holding Crimaea,expands in south Ucraine and Georgia-a combination of alliances for the purpose of wars to eliminate opponents,royal marriages that carry lands as dowry,alliance with Nicaea and possibly Georgia and the Mongols to eliminate Turks.Trebizond and Nicaea profit the most,Georgia less.Georgia eventually falls to Nicaea and Trebizond.Nicaea expands west and south and takes all eastern islands in the Aegean.Trebizond takes Constantinople.
2) Nicaea expands west(including Dodecanese and ,south(including Cyprus) and east at the turkish principalities up to Syria;later feels strong enough and forces the Syrian gates.....
3)Epirus holds strongly nowday's Albania,defeats the latins,causes war between the Serbs and the latins wears out both and Michael cuts to pieces the Serbs takes most of their land exterminates or expels the unwanted population,repopulates with Greeks,retains Serbs who are Greek speakers.takes children of exterminated parents,grows them up as greek warriors with a Spartan regime training.Extends to Dalmatia,creates a good fleet and sets eyes on Sicily.Defeats Hungarians sets Danube as his border.
4)What is the fourth part?Theodoro? with Trebizond's expansion it benefits by conquering Black sea ports and certain pieces of inland.Holds the trade from the North to the West and South a lot of riches and creation of strong fleet to protect its interests and expand eventually north and south west;good relations and alliances.
That is to start with...
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I've heard that it was ultimately a mistake for Nicaea to reconquer Constantinople and if they had not, would have retained their Anatolian focus and the basis of their power.
Trebizond lasted as long as it did through the beauty of its royal daughters who were astutely used to cement alliances with its many potentially hostile neighbors. I think long term that Trebizond was in just a little too vulnerable a position to be able to expand in your way, Cimon.
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I think that Avitus is asking for a POD with Greek successor states.
The Latin Empire Greek? Well, if you are considering the general population and not the rulers...
Yes. But I think he doesn't want to count that.
Say what you think he wants to count, and after you let him state his wishes
himself.
I did the 1st half. Where's Avitus?
You haven't complete it so please expand on it and then let's hear Avitus.
Providing Avitus has a clear idea of the process in his mind or we may somehow give ideas.
Sorry, had to go to church. I wasn't going to include the Latin Empire, but if someone wants to use it than I suppose that they can so long as it gets a Greco-Roman ruling class eventually.I did the 1st half. Where's Avitus?
@Herzen's love-child, Despotate of Morea wank would be cool, though difficult considering Morea's relatively low population. I don't count the Ottomans unless they are speaking Greek and using Greek names though.
@cimon, I might have to agree that Trebizond as an expansionist power is difficult. Maybe if they manage to hold Paphlagonia and find a means to take some or all of Cappadocia first, but without those areas I don't see them with enough manpower to expand in Georgia and the Crimea.
I agree there,but i said none is going to achieve his aims without help and I didn't exclude concentric action.
The Latin Empire Greek? Well, if you are considering the general population and not the rulers...
Yes indeed! it is going to fall to Trebizond.
By Trebizond sending in an advance wave of nubile noble daughters to distract the Latins before the cutting blow...
On the face of it yes!both you and Avitus are right!,but please think:none of these states will survive without cooperation and full support of each other!
It is the old saying:fight the fire in the house of your neighbour,before it come to your own house! the maxim is old simple and effective:they have to understand that,with respect of each other's liberty and territorial integrity they can survive and expand only by supporting each other;in that.Michael Palaeologos of Epeirus can exterminate or expel Serbs and Bulgars,make his border the river Danube and from there he can do many things;all of them would have to create powerful navies,trade,Nicaea and Trebizond are holding the end of Silk and caravan roads;(Theodoro could be closely associated with Trebizond and hold the mouth of Dneiper....
They(all together) will eliminate the Venetian,Pisan and other Italian navies,Epeirus can eradicate Venice and conquer Sicily in a second stage and then Southern Italy moving its capital to Athens since they need the best port in the Mediterranean(Piraeus) after capturing Peloponnese.
Of course they could ally themselves with the Mongols when the time comes and to their great advantage...(a very interesting scheme Avitus...).But there is a proviso Avitus:can you carry out both Threads?
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I think that Trebizond OTL did do a little of both, making nice with Nicaea (particularly after N. had regained Constantinople) and making overtures with the Mongols. The latter was complicated by Trebizond's intrigues with Georgia if memory serves me right. Epirus was another matter. Nicaea and Epirus were very hostile towards the other.