AHC: Most powerful Sahara based state possible

Placed in Before 1900 because I'm assuming a PoD before 1900 would need to occur to make this possible.

As the title challenges, how can we get a strong-ish nation - the stronger the better - based in the modern Sahara Desert?
 
Last edited:
Strong relative to what? To how the region is now? Otherwise impossible. If you had a climate PoD that left the Sahara as a grasslands then you could have horse-archer type steppe armies that would be pretty strong assuming the horse is still domesticated.
 
Strong relative to what? To how the region is now? Otherwise impossible. If you had a climate PoD that left the Sahara as a grasslands then you could have horse-archer type steppe armies that would be pretty strong assuming the horse is still domesticated.
Just something stronger then what there is now, I guess. Doesn't have to be first world or anything... just strong for its terrible position.

I'd rather no climate PoDs, if possible.
 
The Sanussi are the best bet, I'd say. Throughout their entire history they've been an extremely resiliant lot and their incorporation into various polities (Ottomans, Brits, Italians, Libians...) is more on paper than in practice.
 
If it was a climate AH that left the desert more like a steppe, we could see a powerful state in the way the Mongols, or Huns, or whoever was powerful.

A pastoral, horse/camel/(elephant?)-based army that conquers everyone next to the Sahara, just as the Mongols conquered everyone next to the Steppe. If we want to time it so it coincides with the Mongols, and give them the best chance of tackling the Muslims, this could be some time around 1250. So we'd have such empires as the Mali, the Mamluks in Egypt, Ethiopia, the Almohads, and I'm probably missing a few, all under the rule of one Kahn like figure, and a coalition of tribes.

They make the conquest and hold it for a generation, maybe two, before it falls apart. This could be most interesting in terms of strengthening sub-Saharan states for later. The Reconquista will be changed as well. Improved trade routes through the Sahara could see an expansion of North African states down into it later, laying the groundwork for a later Saharan 'Russia' in charge of the whole thing.
 
I think a Khedivite Egypt that colonises sideways rather than into the Sudan would be pretty interesting. Nab a lot of juicy coastline for trade and power-flexing in the Med.
 
I'd say the best bet would be via the creation of a centralized state centered around the vast expanse of the Niger basin. The state would start small, unified by a common culture which was vague enough to accommodate assimilation. It would begin as a hydrological empire, whose monarchy depended upon mass cultivation. Its economy would be largely agrarian, centered around the mass cultivation of durum wheat and millet. The state over the centuries invested much of its income towards the maintenance of a sophisticated irrigation network. This in turn supported a large population, an enormous military, and a network of mercantile cities.

Said kingdom would expand via diplomacy, conquest, and colonization. Its culture would be accepting of integration, even as its citizens out number those of conquered lands, while assimilation absorbed the peoples of rival kingdoms and tribes. A bureaucracy is formed and expanded inorder to manage its vast expanses, while a pan ethnic aristocracy emerges its provinces and sub provinces. On the other hand, the cities are largely dominated by a merchant elite whose leaders control the trade routes to North Africa, Arabia, Europe and beyond. They return providing wares, and telling stories of the empires and kingdoms of the north, all of whom are but a pale shadow to them by comparison (despite being very profitable trade partners).Their expansion takes them to the coasts. Ocean going is slow initially, however as urban centers take route along the coasts, fishing techniques become increasingly sophisticated and over time sea faring evolves.

The state eventually reaches its natural borders. Europe see's it less as a state than an empire or nation, it controls nearly the entity of west Africa. It comes to be seen as a powerful, wealthy, unity state, spoken of in the same way as Rome or China. Its mercantile community assures that it remains prosperous and in touch with the advances of the outside world. Therefore said state remains comparative modernized, allowing it to maintain technological parity with its rivals. Its only a matter of time, before it begins to challenge the thassalocracies of Europe for control of the oversea routes. Therefore said state produces a large, well fed, and prosperious population, ready to compete with the west at its own game.
 
I'd say the best bet would be via the creation of a centralized state centered around the vast expanse of the Niger basin. The state would start small, unified by a common culture which was vague enough to accommodate assimilation. It would begin as a hydrological empire, whose monarchy depended upon mass cultivation. Its economy would be largely agrarian, centered around the mass cultivation of durum wheat and millet. The state over the centuries invested much of its income towards the maintenance of a sophisticated irrigation network. This in turn supported a large population, an enormous military, and a network of mercantile cities.

Said kingdom would expand via diplomacy, conquest, and colonization. Its culture would be accepting of integration, even as its citizens out number those of conquered lands, while assimilation absorbed the peoples of rival kingdoms and tribes. A bureaucracy is formed and expanded inorder to manage its vast expanses, while a pan ethnic aristocracy emerges its provinces and sub provinces. On the other hand, the cities are largely dominated by a merchant elite whose leaders control the trade routes to North Africa, Arabia, Europe and beyond. They return providing wares, and telling stories of the empires and kingdoms of the north, all of whom are but a pale shadow to them by comparison (despite being very profitable trade partners).Their expansion takes them to the coasts. Ocean going is slow initially, however as urban centers take route along the coasts, fishing techniques become increasingly sophisticated and over time sea faring evolves.

The state eventually reaches its natural borders. Europe see's it less as a state than an empire or nation, it controls nearly the entity of west Africa. It comes to be seen as a powerful, wealthy, unity state, spoken of in the same way as Rome or China. Its mercantile community assures that it remains prosperous and in touch with the advances of the outside world. Therefore said state remains comparative modernized, allowing it to maintain technological parity with its rivals. Its only a matter of time, before it begins to challenge the thassalocracies of Europe for control of the oversea routes. Therefore said state produces a large, well fed, and prosperious population, ready to compete with the west at its own game.
Interesting... I like the idea.
 
The Sanussi are the best bet, I'd say. Throughout their entire history they've been an extremely resiliant lot and their incorporation into various polities (Ottomans, Brits, Italians, Libians...) is more on paper than in practice.

Definitely a Sanusi state. They were predominant in the area in red in the map attached; a state like that would have decent oil revenue, plus a lot of uranium.

It would have some cultural diversity, but have an extensive educational and trade infrastructure, plus a great deal of religious, political, and social unity.

It would be fairly formidable, albeit with limited population resources. Maybe 10-15M people at most.
 
Interesting... I like the idea.

It's a good idea, but it doesn't really satisfy your OP. It wouldn't really be a Saharan state.

Bornu might be another. While technically not in the Sahara, it was at the edge of the Sahara, and controlled much of today's Niger, Chad, Nigeria, and Libya.
 
It's a good idea, but it doesn't really satisfy your OP. It wouldn't really be a Saharan state.

Bornu might be another. While technically not in the Sahara, it was at the edge of the Sahara, and controlled much of today's Niger, Chad, Nigeria, and Libya.
No it didn't (satisfy the OP), but it was still intriguing, with a large and dominant African Empire like that, covering the entire Sahara. We don't see enough of those, especially ones without any European involvement.

In satisfying the pure OP, the Sanusi do make sense; though they seemed more modern then I'd expected, they would have the ability and will to fight for their resources and for the survival of their state, and are primarily situated on a decent spot for the Sahara.
 
I'd say the best bet would be via the creation of a centralized state centered around the vast expanse of the Niger basin. The state would start small, unified by a common culture which was vague enough to accommodate assimilation. It would begin as a hydrological empire, whose monarchy depended upon mass cultivation. Its economy would be largely agrarian, centered around the mass cultivation of durum wheat and millet. The state over the centuries invested much of its income towards the maintenance of a sophisticated irrigation network. This in turn supported a large population, an enormous military, and a network of mercantile cities.

Said kingdom would expand via diplomacy, conquest, and colonization. Its culture would be accepting of integration, even as its citizens out number those of conquered lands, while assimilation absorbed the peoples of rival kingdoms and tribes. A bureaucracy is formed and expanded inorder to manage its vast expanses, while a pan ethnic aristocracy emerges its provinces and sub provinces. On the other hand, the cities are largely dominated by a merchant elite whose leaders control the trade routes to North Africa, Arabia, Europe and beyond. They return providing wares, and telling stories of the empires and kingdoms of the north, all of whom are but a pale shadow to them by comparison (despite being very profitable trade partners).Their expansion takes them to the coasts. Ocean going is slow initially, however as urban centers take route along the coasts, fishing techniques become increasingly sophisticated and over time sea faring evolves.

The state eventually reaches its natural borders. Europe see's it less as a state than an empire or nation, it controls nearly the entity of west Africa. It comes to be seen as a powerful, wealthy, unity state, spoken of in the same way as Rome or China. Its mercantile community assures that it remains prosperous and in touch with the advances of the outside world. Therefore said state remains comparative modernized, allowing it to maintain technological parity with its rivals. Its only a matter of time, before it begins to challenge the thassalocracies of Europe for control of the oversea routes. Therefore said state produces a large, well fed, and prosperious population, ready to compete with the west at its own game.

Sounds like the OTL Maliian Empire or later Songhai Empire. Such a massive state isn't just possible, it's OTL, and having Timboktu as a central city points to how integral the trans-Saharan trade was...so such a state as the basis for a trans-Saharan empire is plausible.

Of course to meet the OP, one borderline option could be for a Berber Saharan culture to "pull a Qing" and take over as the new dynastic leaders of the Mali Basin Empire in addition to their former Saharan lands. Perhaps then using the resources of the Mali holdings (lots and lots of gold!) they could establish a major empire.
 
Sounds like the OTL Maliian Empire or later Songhai Empire. Such a massive state isn't just possible, it's OTL, and having Timboktu as a central city points to how integral the trans-Saharan trade was...so such a state as the basis for a trans-Saharan empire is plausible.

Of course to meet the OP, one borderline option could be for a Berber Saharan culture to "pull a Qing" and take over as the new dynastic leaders of the Mali Basin Empire in addition to their former Saharan lands. Perhaps then using the resources of the Mali holdings (lots and lots of gold!) they could establish a major empire.
Mali and Songhai weren't quite as strong as King Gorilla's Niger basin/Sahara state though; the empire he describes is one being on par with China and Rome, while the empires you list were not close to being on par with them - though, don't get me wrong, they were very strong in their own right. Just I wouldn't put them on par with either of those.

As to the rest of your statement though... that's along the lines of what I was originally thinking. I think it would be difficult, however, to keep the wealth flowing as it did for Mansa Musa and what not for an extended period of time.
 
Mali and Songhai weren't quite as strong as King Gorilla's Niger basin/Sahara state though; the empire he describes is one being on par with China and Rome, while the empires you list were not close to being on par with them - though, don't get me wrong, they were very strong in their own right. Just I wouldn't put them on par with either of those.

As to the rest of your statement though... that's along the lines of what I was originally thinking. I think it would be difficult, however, to keep the wealth flowing as it did for Mansa Musa and what not for an extended period of time.

No, they weren't...I mentioned them because they're OTL evidence that such a state is plausible.
 
One problem. Check this map.

africa_ndvi_200511.jpg


As you can see there is a line of jungle between the Sahael and the coast. In our timeline it was very difficult for any of the empires to control that area as anything more than transit because the jungle was just too disease ridden until more modern techniques made it feasible to rule over. It was only when the Europeans made certain advances that it became at all feasible to assert control over the jungle areas. Limited to the Sahael it any kingdom would naturally find it easiest to rely on trade and cavalry to expand their power. I don't know the details about irrigation of the Niger river, but I do know that the Sahara gradually expanded south over the centuries making the land more marginal. This is what actually caused the collapse of the Ghannas not foreign invasion for instance.

All this is saying that King Gorilla's postulated has to modified, in some cases heavily, to be plausible.
 
One problem. Check this map.

africa_ndvi_200511.jpg


As you can see there is a line of jungle between the Sahael and the coast. In our timeline it was very difficult for any of the empires to control that area as anything more than transit because the jungle was just too disease ridden until more modern techniques made it feasible to rule over. It was only when the Europeans made certain advances that it became at all feasible to assert control over the jungle areas. Limited to the Sahael it any kingdom would naturally find it easiest to rely on trade and cavalry to expand their power. I don't know the details about irrigation of the Niger river, but I do know that the Sahara gradually expanded south over the centuries making the land more marginal. This is what actually caused the collapse of the Ghannas not foreign invasion for instance.

All this is saying that King Gorilla's postulated has to modified, in some cases heavily, to be plausible.

I don't agree. The Sokoto Caliphate was a massive state, and it encompassed much of that region. There's a big difference between the edge of that forest belt, which is not rainforest or disease-ridden, and the coastal areas.

In fact, the Sokoto Caliphate itself is a pretty good basis for a huge empire of the type the OP calls for.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Sahel is basically a big highway. It's easy to traverse, and easy to rule with a cavalry army. A pan-Sahelic state is a realistic possibility, even before technology. A powerful state in the Sahel could dominate the Sahara, as well as the coastal states, although ruling them directly would be very difficult.
 
In otl didn't the morrocons conquer Songhai thus couldn't they be considered a Saharan power. All you need really is for them to not get curbstomped.. By Spain, France and Portugal.... Then you could see a morrocon kingdom as a major player that modernizes at an incredible pace and is able to fight venly with euro powers..
 
Top