AHC; more Spey Phantoms?

How did this thread go from Spey Phantoms to CF5s? Is there a Spey Phantom version of the CF5 that I don't know about?
 
How did this thread go from Spey Phantoms to CF5s? Is there a Spey Phantom version of the CF5 that I don't know about?

The mighty CF-5 defeated the lowly Spey/Phantom in "The Battle for Canadian Defense Procurement". Implausibility in Actual History sometimes belies the implausibility of Alternate History. It's political, complex, and very stupid, in retrospect.
 
Didn't the Spey modifications massively increase the cost of the F-4Ks in comparison to the regular US variants? I'm just wondering if without the need to help prop up domestic companies or take off from shorter carriers whether the changes merit the costs.
 
I would imagine the subsequent purchase of F-4J(UK) models might give some indication of how important the Spey installation really was.
 
Didn't the Spey modifications massively increase the cost of the F-4Ks in comparison to the regular US variants? I'm just wondering if without the need to help prop up domestic companies or take off from shorter carriers whether the changes merit the costs.

Hard to say. Generally such things don't drive the actual unit cost too much, but if you produce a low number you never get anything back in terms of development.
 
Didn't the Spey modifications massively increase the cost of the F-4Ks in comparison to the regular US variants? I'm just wondering if without the need to help prop up domestic companies or take off from shorter carriers whether the changes merit the costs.

Yes, it did drive up costs but the F4K mods were needed for the RN so the choice is pay extra or don't get the capability. The same mods weren't really needed for the RAFs F4Ms they could have used cheaper J79 models, but I think having two engine types in the fleet would have raised costs anyway so in for penny in for a pound. Aside from cost it is important strategically to include as much domestic industrial input as possible so that you aren't embargoed in an emergency by your arms supplier. This is why so many countires so called 'pork barrel' with their defence acquisitions, independence is more important than cost.

As for the F4J(UK) in the peculiar circumstances of mid 80s Britain they had little choice but to buy almost standard used F4Js. The Phantom production line closed in 1981 so they can't buy new planes at all, let aone more new spey planes.
 
Pearson and Wilson were in negotiation over co-production of Spey-Phantom. On the advice of one Paul Hellyer, negotiations were terminated. Production of CF-5 was the fault of Paul Hellyer, who was also responsible for their lack of certain capability specifications. That only two squadrons served with the CF-5, the remainder in storage, for this, we call upon PET. It's complicated, and disgusting...

OK, so we butterfly the fruitcake Paul Hellyer away (and he really is a fruitcake these days....) and Canadair gets the approval for McDonnell Douglas to make the RCAF's Spey Phantoms, with both them and BAC being the partners to make the fighter for both sides. With the price and capability for the F-4M (I'm assuming Canada gets the land-based variant as they have no need for the carrier-based one) but with the stronger landing gear from the F-4K, with an internal gun fitted to the fleet via a longer F-4E style nose in the late 1960s. The F-4M was meant more as air-to-air fighter and interceptor, so it would then retire the CF-100 and CF-101 as I said before, and maybe retire the CF-104, though the Starfighter is less than a decade old at this point.

As the Canadian Phantoms are likely to be deployed to the RCAF's squadrons in Europe and send the Starfighters back to North America, though the fast Starfighters would probably have a squadron or two based in Europe for the nuclear strike role the RCAF had at the time.

Assuming this comes with a stronger defense commitment between Canada and the UK, then it raises the possibility of the Conservatives' plans for a stronger Canadian armed forces in the 1970s, which included a large number of shore-based strike aircraft, more likely, and if that goes in the 1970s, then it may result in the Buccaneer for the RCN or RCAF.
 
OK, so we butterfly the fruitcake Paul Hellyer away (and he really is a fruitcake these days....) and Canadair gets the approval for McDonnell Douglas to make the RCAF's Spey Phantoms, with both them and BAC being the partners to make the fighter for both sides. With the price and capability for the F-4M (I'm assuming Canada gets the land-based variant as they have no need for the carrier-based one) but with the stronger landing gear from the F-4K, with an internal gun fitted to the fleet via a longer F-4E style nose in the late 1960s. The F-4M was meant more as air-to-air fighter and interceptor, so it would then retire the CF-100 and CF-101 as I said before, and maybe retire the CF-104, though the Starfighter is less than a decade old at this point.

As the Canadian Phantoms are likely to be deployed to the RCAF's squadrons in Europe and send the Starfighters back to North America, though the fast Starfighters would probably have a squadron or two based in Europe for the nuclear strike role the RCAF had at the time.

Assuming this comes with a stronger defense commitment between Canada and the UK, then it raises the possibility of the Conservatives' plans for a stronger Canadian armed forces in the 1970s, which included a large number of shore-based strike aircraft, more likely, and if that goes in the 1970s, then it may result in the Buccaneer for the RCN or RCAF.

You have to butterfly Trudeau as well, because he pulled the plug on full deployment of CF-5 and he would pull the plug on the vastly more expensive Spey/F4. The only decent defense minister was Barney Danson in 1976, but Trudeau was still boss. I also recall waiting with anticipation as a succession of Conservative defense ministers let me down.
 
You have to butterfly Trudeau as well, because he pulled the plug on full deployment of CF-5 and he would pull the plug on the vastly more expensive Spey/F4. The only decent defense minister was Barney Danson in 1976, but Trudeau was still boss. I also recall waiting with anticipation as a succession of Conservative defense ministers let me down.

Butterflying Trudeau from a defense standpoint is pretty easy - have a revolt of many of the RCN and RCAF personnel in 1967-68 which slows (or outright stops) the unification of the forces, and lets the Conservatives (under Stanfield by this point) bash Pearson and Trudeau long and hard over it, sufficiently so to keep Trudeau from a majority in 1968. (He's gonna win no matter what, unfortunately, but there is a way of slowing him down.) This leaves the balance of power with the NDP, which in 1968 was still heavily trade-union influenced and loudly trying to show that they were not communists, and as such it would be pretty easy for Tommy Douglas and David Lewis to side with Stanfield on defense matters and force Trudeau to pay more attention (and funds) to the Canadian armed forces.
 
Is there any scenario where the F4K gets into a dogfight very early on in it's career, prior to Top Gun pulling the Phantoms kill ratio back up? It could use its mid-range grunt to get a good victory and change the minds of some OTL Phantom customers about the J79.
 
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