AHC: More social Darwinist values

Personally I don't think it is in human nature to seek absolute freedom but rather a stable free-enough condition.

Basically the preferring the "safari park" to the "zoo" (where you're locked in to a particular social & financial environment) or the "wilds" (where you're free to starve and be exploited if you are not strong enough).
 

Alkahest

Banned
A good secret police and other repressive measures are just blocking up the safety valve further. It might hold off the eruption a while longer but it'll be bigger when it comes.

Bread and circuses will help for a while, but they don't make up for not being able to get jobs etc...
That's where the slavery comes in! I kid, I understand your point.
No taxes? How are you going to pay for that bread and those circuses? This is the problem with autocracy: you're always trying to make up for things elsewhere, and you end up not having an advantage in either area. It's lack of regulation, increasing inequality and lack of a safety net that are causing much of the discontent in China now...
Ah, I simply meant that taxes wouldn't go to, for example, social security or health care for the poor. But you're right, autocracy has several problems. In your opinion, would a more "decentralized" tyranny, like a corporate-controlled dystopia with real competition between the companies, be more effective?
 

Alkahest

Banned
Democracy is not rare in history, low level, non-organized socieisties aside, democratic governance has developed multiple times independently around the world, ranging from ancient India to various parts of Europe to East Asia, to the Levant to North America, and that's only of the societies and civilizations we actually know anything about.

Even in monarchies their was some form of limited democratic accountance, and in several of the ones their was'nt, their was a system where if you pissed off the people you were done for.
The 'Modern concept' of Democracy is an ever evolving thing, so lots of things existed longer than it, however the concept of Democracy and its practice existed long before the Roman Empire did, and even then the Empire atleast had some democratic attributes, even if it was only in theory alot of times.
I think that depends on how broadly we want to define "democracy". How many pre-modern societies can you think of where the government was chosen by all the people living within the zone it controls? Such a system was hardly common.
No, government hold a Monopoly of Force, but most Democracies do not maintain power through it.
Then what are all those prisons for?
 
I think that depends on how broadly we want to define "democracy". How many pre-modern societies can you think of where the government was chosen by all the people living within the zone it controls? Such a system was hardly common.

Universal Suffrage is a recent thing, yes, however democratic governance itself is not new, indeed their are acneitn societies that were more democratic than the United States at its founding.

Democracy (IE a state that drives its legitimacy from the people and hs elections) and democratic governance really are two related but seperate things and are'nt black and white, but rather a sprectrum.


Then what are all those prisons for?

For people who commit crimes.

The government punishing those who have committed (legitimate) crimes is not maintaingin powetr through force.
 

Alkahest

Banned
Universal Suffrage is a recent thing, yes, however democratic governance itself is not new, indeed their are acneitn societies that were more democratic than the United States at its founding.
I'm afraid I don't know what societies you're thinking about.
The government punishing those who have committed (legitimate) crimes is not maintaingin powetr through force.
Well, who decides what crimes are legitimate and not? Staging a coup is illegal in all countries I know of.
 
In your opinion, would a more "decentralized" tyranny, like a corporate-controlled dystopia with real competition between the companies, be more effective?

Quite possibly. "I might be bad, but your alternatives are worse" is a pretty good way of staying in power for autocrats. See Putin, House of Saud etc...
 
I'm afraid I don't know what societies you're thinking about.

The Ancient Greeks, most likely the ancient Indian Republics, various native Confederations.

While they did'nt have Universal Suffrage (that we know of), they did allow all males (mle citizens in the Greeks case) to vote.

The United States initially only allowed people to vote if they were white males who owned property/land.




Well, who decides what crimes are legitimate and not? Staging a coup is illegal in all countries I know of.

Society for the most part.

Their are certain crimes like rape and murder that fit into the evolutionary crime category, that is every society throughout history has considered them crimes to various degrees, while other crimes fit into the societal crimes category, which itself is broken into victimless crimes and victim crimes.
 

Alkahest

Banned
Quite possibly. "I might be bad, but your alternatives are worse" is a pretty good way of staying in power for autocrats. See Putin, House of Saud etc...
It also helps that cutting off one head will allow someone else to gobble up the corpse and grow even fatter.
The Ancient Greeks, most likely the ancient Indian Republics, various native Confederations.

While they did'nt have Universal Suffrage (that we know of), they did allow all males (mle citizens in the Greeks case) to vote.

The United States initially only allowed people to vote if they were white males who owned property/land.
I think we should remember the differences between Enlightenment-inspired democracy and Athenian democracy. (I don't know enough about the ancient Indian republics and the Native American confederations to discuss their differences to modern democracies, feel free to enlighten me.) The American democracy rested on both the idea of the equality of man and the idea that checks and balances were necessary to avoid the tyranny of the majority. The Athenian democracy lacked both. The American democracy's initial failure to live up to the first idea has more to do with economics than philosophy, as far as I know.
Society for the most part.

Their are certain crimes like rape and murder that fit into the evolutionary crime category, that is every society throughout history has considered them crimes to various degrees, while other crimes fit into the societal crimes category, which itself is broken into victimless crimes and victim crimes.
I'm still not sure why this means that democratic governments don't stay in power using force, but I'm willing to let the subject drop if you are.
 
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