AHC: More Religious Europe and America

Pretty much. Actually it requires that the church itself not be part of the elite (ie not be a major landowner or part of aristocracy). That is probably more important than a technical separation of church and state.

So like a decentralized Catholic Church that's not as land-owner and elitist?
 
So like a decentralized Catholic Church that's not as land-owner and elitist?

Maybe, but the issue is really not whether or not the church is centralized but that it is part of the governing elite. Best to go back and eliminate the establishment of the Church as the state religion of the Roman Empire. This set the trend of "state churches" for the next 1000 years. Since European states prior to the 1800's were autocratic monarchies or oligarchical republics ruled by aristocracies, it was only natural that the leadership of State Churches in these nations would also become part of the feudal power elite.

There is no reason that Christianity (or any religion) couldn't have spread with a centralized and even hierarchical structure as a faith community in the Roman Empire apart from any direct association with the state. If the hierarchy in the church is not based on wealth and temporal power, it need not become associated in the peoples' mind with oppressive governments
 
Maybe, but the issue is really not whether or not the church is centralized but that it is part of the governing elite. Best to go back and eliminate the establishment of the Church as the state religion of the Roman Empire. This set the trend of "state churches" for the next 1000 years. Since European states prior to the 1800's were autocratic monarchies or oligarchical republics ruled by aristocracies, it was only natural that the leadership of State Churches in these nations would also become part of the feudal power elite.

There is no reason that Christianity (or any religion) couldn't have spread with a centralized and even hierarchical structure as a faith community in the Roman Empire apart from any direct association with the state. If the hierarchy in the church is not based on wealth and temporal power, it need not become associated in the peoples' mind with oppressive governments

So like would separation of church and state help things?

The only thing you need to do is to prevent (1) the establishment of state churches and (2) the alignment of the churches with the nobility and repressive national governments. Throughout Europe, the church (and to a less extent the Christian religion itself) came to be identified with conservatism, reaction, and repression. This is not the case in the US, where their is no established church and many churches were active - or even in the forefront - of social liberation movements. American blacks are among the most religious people in the US, and this is because many churches supported the fight for their equality. I think this has far more to do with the difference between the US and the rest of the west (or Latin America for that matter) with respect to religiosity than current conditions.

The Catholic Church was also involved in social justice. Maybe make them more oriented towards that maybe? You don't need independent churches. Just tweak the Catholic Church structure to be more autonomous.
 
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RandomWriterGuy,
Are you perfectly sure you don't mean secularism?
Which is not the same as atheism, obviously.

Also: Atheism is prominent in America? Is there some kind of cover-up that keeps this prominence from being noted in/by media?
 
If we're talking about the Catholic Church in Europe, I think the best thing for it would be to keep moving forward with the reforms of Vatican II. It also doesn't have to be pro-choice but being anti-birth control is stupid. And, oh yeah, stop being so sleazy.

Speaking as a Catholic, one who goes to Mass every week, the Church tried to control every aspect of its members lives for centuries. Once that wasn't possible any more, you saw folks leaving in droves in Spain, in Italy, in Ireland, etc. etc.
 
If we're talking about the Catholic Church in Europe, I think the best thing for it would be to keep moving forward with the reforms of Vatican II. It also doesn't have to be pro-choice but being anti-birth control is stupid. And, oh yeah, stop being so sleazy.

Speaking as a Catholic, one who goes to Mass every week, the Church tried to control every aspect of its members lives for centuries. Once that wasn't possible any more, you saw folks leaving in droves in Spain, in Italy, in Ireland, etc. etc.

Don't other churches do that to?
 
Oh, of course. But the Catholic Church was a major, major figure in the countries that I mentioned. (And, honestly, I feel a lot more comfortable criticizing it than I would, say, the COE.)
 
Keep moving forward with the participation of the laity in the direction of the Church, much as they had been more involved in the actual Mass.

Also... I don't know... don't embrace Franco like he was the second coming of Our Savior. And knock off with the child molesting. And don't try to keep Ireland as a de facto theocracy, now and forever, world without end?

Stuff like that.
 
Keep moving forward with the participation of the laity in the direction of the Church, much as they had been more involved in the actual Mass.

Also... I don't know... don't embrace Franco like he was the second coming of Our Savior. And knock off with the child molesting. And don't try to keep Ireland as a de facto theocracy, now and forever, world without end?

Stuff like that.

Besides the post-Communist European countries how do we get Scandinavia, UK, Netherlands, West Germany, Switzerland and others from having rising atheism?
 
Areas with more equality, stronger welfare systems, and higher living standards tend to be less religious. Reverse those trends and you would have a more religious Europe and America. The fact that the United States is so religious relative to other states is consistent with the data, as wealth and higher living standards tend to be more concentrated than in Europe and Asia, and there isn't as much equality or a strong welfare system.

Also, it's likely that the Soviet Union would have become less religious anyways even if it hadn't been state policy, because it had all those factors. There wasn't much in the way of things to purchase, but otherwise Soviet living standards were on par with and in some areas better than the West.

Back to this post I'm wondering how can the more equal areas you mentioned at the way top be as religious as America without compromising their benefits of welfare and giving living standards and such?
 
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