The population requirement is a big hurtle, it alone disqualifies every candidate you have suggested.
AHC: More China-esque "continuous" or "central" civilizations
- Thread starter Achaemenid Rome
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Toraach
Banned
The Russian Empire without revolution and 1WW. So many more millions of men, who didn't perish in wars, hungers, gulags etc . The Soviet Empire had 290mln at the end, so a state in this area, but without those catastrophes migh have much more. Maybe even 400 mln. And most of that be under russian cultural influece.
Some sort of Ghana/Mali Empire in the Sahel that is better able to stabilise and centralise could be a contender.
Would also literally be a Middle Kingdom between the Maghreb and the jungles of the Guinea Coast.
Would also literally be a Middle Kingdom between the Maghreb and the jungles of the Guinea Coast.
During the ancient period it was, but after the invention of the heavy plough, the plain became prime agricultural land. In fact, earlier invention of the heavy plough would be an interesting POD, and one which might theoretically end up fulfilling the OP.
The EU currently has around 510 million people -- not up to the 600 million required by the OP, but not so far off as to suggest that it would be impossible to break the threshold with the right chain of circumstances.
One good candidate would be the Mississippi River Basin. You'd need some way to advance technology beyond OTL levels, but in terms of physical geography, the area seems ideal for the creation of a China-esque empire. There's plenty of rich farmland to support a large population, relatively few natural barriers, the Mississippi itself would act as a good highway for transporting goods around the empire, and the river's unpredictability would incentivise people to band together for large-scale hydraulic works.
A persistent Carolingian Empire, a possibility which was suggested by the OP, might well end up covering a similar area to the modern EU.
At that point you may as well be talking abut a persisting Rome.
I actually think that northern Europe would be a better candidate, geographically speaking, for a persisting empire than Italy would. Italy is surrounded on all sides by mountains and seas, whereas northern Europe is a nice, flat plain stretching all the way from the Urals to the Atlantic.
Are you implying that the centre of China has never moved?
That is a significant feature of China's history, although not required for this challenge, as it would disqualify all Roman and Iranian examples. The last primary civilization in Mesopotamia likely would be the Neo-Assyrian Empire.
A civilization can conceive of itself as the primary civilization in its region without strictly being the very first civilization there. An inherited imperial tradition can also be significantly changed or infused with new elements from an area that wasn't fully organized into urbanized polities before (e.g. Arabian customs influencing the government of Islamic realms and the Caliphate)
If they manage to assimilate a large area into a common culture and civilization, they would likely analogize past history into their own.
Iran itself yes, but the China-esque Iranosphere in question would probably be a large area of land stretching from Anatolia to the Indus and from Egypt to Central Asia. Iran only being the center of a much larger "China".
The assimilated region can expand over time, as Han culture expanded during the Qin and Han dynasties. Considering that IOTL Persianate Islamic dynasties spread across India, then over 2000 years it's possible the Indus valley could be assimilated and eventually speak Iranian. After all the Nile, Tigris, and Euphrates regions were all successfully Arabized despite being so densely populated for the time.
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Is 600 million people in the Iranian cultural realm truly impossible? The region had a significant decline in population due to the Mongols and repeated wars and epidemics, but a Persia-wank might have the region hit 600 million people, and likely with advanced technology like with the region pioneering desalination tech. I'd throw in developments like importing/managing groves of acacias or mesquites for firewood/charcoal as well as food by mixing their seeds into flour for extra substance.
If the indigenous people of that region had a crop as good as rice plus some good domesticates (one of the American horse species or maybe the American camel species), they'd no doubt be the root of one of the greatest cultural regions of the world. It might be the best region in the world to compare to China, since they would have many "barbarians" to the west and north surrounding the civilised peoples who reside mostly along the rivers, in this case the Mississippi, Ohio, (lower) Missouri, and tributaries. The east (beyond the Appalachians) would also be called "barbarians", but more developed, comparable to Southeast Asia perhaps.
If the indigenous people of that region had a crop as good as rice plus some good domesticates (one of the American horse species or maybe the American camel species), they'd no doubt be the root of one of the greatest cultural regions of the world. It might be the best region in the world to compare to China, since they would have many "barbarians" to the west and north surrounding the civilised peoples who reside mostly along the rivers, in this case the Mississippi, Ohio, (lower) Missouri, and tributaries. The east (beyond the Appalachians) would also be called "barbarians", but more developed, comparable to Southeast Asia perhaps.
The mongols didn't magically make the land barren, the effect of their conquest shouldn't be expected to have lasted more than a couple centuries(at the very worst), plus 600 million(4 times the current population) is just impossible without some sort of Africa-like growth up to this day, which seems improbable if you are trying to create a stable big country.
The lands of the former Achaemenid Empire have around 600 million people already, so why can't ATL mega-Iran reach those levels too?
A persisting Roman Empire with territory around the Middle East remains to me the best candidate since they inevitably hit the geographic barriers like china did- that if the deserts to the south and east and the frigid north. They could have a cultural shift to maintaining the large empire instead of expanding as well, though how such shift happens I have no clue. They probably have a similar dynastic cycle of disunity/unity to china after some point.
I've always heard the Mongols (and the events afterwards) in Iran/Central Asia depopulated the land to a degree where it did not recover in terms of population numbers until the 19th/early 20th century. It was definitely disastrous in many parts. Four times the population would be a challenge, but not entirely impossible.
Well, y'know, when they destroyed pretty much all the irrigation in the area you practically are making the land magically barren, especially if the successor states following you are weak and unable to mint coins - let alone restore hydraulic projects - for a long, long time.
Napoleonrules
Banned
It's ridiculous China believes that. For one Jews easily reach the criteria of a continous civilization regardless of land or not. The belief is not one of continuous occupation, but of a continuous civilization, which the PRC in culture is about as much in common with the earliest Chinese dynasties as modern day Italy has with Babylonia. Iran and India also have a longer history of continuous civilization. Western Civilization is older and can be traced back to Sumeria very easily (Western Civilization is, unfortunately, very much based on Christian mythos, which draws heavily from Zoroastrian beliefs on top of a superficial Jewish mythos which is heavily drawn from Babylonian myths).
Do they? West Asia in total has 300 million people, 40 million more in Afghanistan and 200 million in Pakistan but I wouldn't call Pakistan part of the "Iranian realm" especially not if by itself it carries so much of the population of the region. But I don't disagree that a lasting Achamenid empire can't full the requirements, even on the demographic department, the question is how likely is it really for such a big region from Thrace to Punjab to stay that cohesive?
Those 3.3 million casualties figures are not believable, especially if they refer at direct killings and the source says the exact same, plus it says right there that the Timurid Shah restored them 2 centuries later, are you even reading your own sources?Well, y'know, when they destroyed pretty much all the irrigation in the area you practically are making the land magically barren, especially if the successor states following you are weak and unable to mint coins - let alone restore hydraulic projects - for a long, long time.
Not sure if it's true the population stayed smaller until 19th/20th century(I mean Mexico did so more or less but it required a very big casualty rate) and even then a 10 million population of Iran during the early modern era(1900 figure) wouldn't lead to that much bigger population by itself, I think the best course of action would having the Iranian realm expand rather than try to increase population in the Iranic speaking region of OTL.