AHC: Mohist China

With Jing Ke successfully killing the King of Qin in 227 BCE as our PoD, how can Chinese history of the next few centuries be as altered as possible? When this PoD is usually discussed, the consensus is that the Unification of All Under Heaven is effectively inevitable by this point; so what other plausible effects are there that would change this new civilization (that OTL emerged from the Qin and Han empires) as much as possible?

For example, as the title implies, is it possible to save more of the schools of philosophy that were popular during the Spring and Autumn and Warring States period, such as Mohism or Yangism? Or for that matter, to curb the influence schools that dominated subsequent Chinese history, namely Confucianism?

What about other possible changes? Could the centralized bureaucracy established by the Qin Empire be weaker than OTL, making room for an enduring landed aristocracy? Woukd this period of unification last as long as it did OTL (over four centuries)? And depending on how China is changed, politically and culturally, how do the butterflies flap beyond their borders?
 
It seems to me that Mozi had the most serious beef with ornate funerary rituals, more so than ritual and art in general; he does say that he enjoys pleasant things, he just doesn't see it having any bearing on good governance. I can see a "Mohist Aeshthetic School" emerging that seeks to bridge the gap between ordinary people's desire to experience and create beautiful things and the philosophy's deep aversion to ostentatious displays; sort of akin to iconoclastic aesthetics, though obviously different.
 
It seems to me that Mozi had the most serious beef with ornate funerary rituals, more so than ritual and art in general; he does say that he enjoys pleasant things, he just doesn't see it having any bearing on good governance. I can see a "Mohist Aeshthetic School" emerging that seeks to bridge the gap between ordinary people's desire to experience and create beautiful things and the philosophy's deep aversion to ostentatious displays; sort of akin to iconoclastic aesthetics, though obviously different.

The English Puritans were similarly hostile to ostentation, beauty, and fun (I mean they cancelled Christmas ffs) but they've had some remarkable staying power. Why 17th century England and it's colonies but not China?
 
Personally, I don't think Yangism has much staying power as much as I would love a TL in which it did (I've said a few times on this forum, a yangist dominated east and a charvaka dominated India would be a cool TL).
Yangism at least would need to transform itself, as in its state back then it was way too easy to attack, even if falsely so. Much of the surviving writings are insulting to monarchy, it is always easy to pick at egoist ideologies unfairly (the confucianists arguing that Yang Zu wouldn't pick a hair off his head to save the world despite him arguing that altruistic acts are in ones own interest) AND much of its best qualities would eventually be picked up by Taoism.

Regarding Mohism, if it was art in general that was frowned upon, I could see ornate architecture being considered an artistic merit that is acceptable just as ornate calligraphy was considered acceptable to venerate god in Islam.
 
Mohism prospers in war: the Mohists were often siege engineers. Thus: you need a constantly divided land for Mohism to prosper. Once all under heaven is under one man, there is little Mohism provides than is not better covered by Confucians, Taoists, and Legalists.
 
Mohism prospers in war: the Mohists were often siege engineers. Thus: you need a constantly divided land for Mohism to prosper. Once all under heaven is under one man, there is little Mohism provides than is not better covered by Confucians, Taoists, and Legalists.

Could there have been demand for other forms of engineering? Even outside of times of war, a school dedicated to churning out hundreds of Chinese Archimedes could gain a lot of respect and at least compete, even if they do not supplant, the other schools of thought.
 
Could there have been demand for other forms of engineering? Even outside of times of war, a school dedicated to churning out hundreds of Chinese Archimedes could gain a lot of respect and at least compete, even if they do not supplant, the other schools of thought.

True enough. Still, it seems most of the appealing things about the Mohist school had already been taken by others, and all that was left to Mohism was a disdain for ritual and a harsh, unbending utilitarianism. And most of the practical innovations had become commonplace. So... yeah, a longer Warring States period would ironically make Mohism thrive.

Or perhaps... what of Crown Prince Fusu ascending the Qin throne and adopting Mohism as his state philosophy alongside Legalism?
 
Or perhaps... what of Crown Prince Fusu ascending the Qin throne and adopting Mohism as his state philosophy alongside Legalism?
I was looking at something like that myself; maybe our alternate First Emperor is still looking to build a centralized state of meritocracy, and like OTL finds the aristocracy of all the states he's conquered a block in his path, so he seeks allies in followers of Mozi.
 
As I understand, Mozi was an early utilitarian? That is, ethics are not some fancy abstract standard, but rather where the rubber hits the road in terms of practical reforms where the lives of actual human beings can go better.
 
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As I understand, Mozi was an early utilitarian? That is, ethics are not some fancy abstract standard, but rather where the rubber hits the road in terms of practical reforms where the lives of actual human beings can go better.

All things considered, pretty much. Add in some proto-empiricism and egalitarianism, and yeah, Mohism.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
I can see a "Mohist Aeshthetic School" emerging that seeks to bridge the gap between ordinary people's desire to experience and create beautiful things and the philosophy's deep aversion to ostentatious displays; sort of akin to iconoclastic aesthetics, though obviously different.

Considering some of the other tenets of Mohism - like the fact that they greatly respected craft and seem to have had at least much less respect for 'useless' art - my thoughts are drawn, perhaps bizarrely, to some sort of Ancient Chinese version of the Arts and Crafts movement.
 
What's the likelihood that Modu Chanyu of the nomadic Xiongnu Empire conquers and unifies the Chinese states under his authority, in lieu of the Qin uniting China?
That's actually a really good idea -- it would help the OP even more if he only managed to conquer the smaller, weaker states to the northeast, while Qin and Chu continued to hold them off. Now that I think of it, if the Jing Ke assassination is successful, it just might throw enough of a wrench into the unification wars to give this time to happen.
CONSOLIDATE: Additional thought on the Xiongnu option -- confronted by this kind of threat, would Qin and Chu seek to diplomatically unite into a single kingdom?
 
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As I understand, Mozi was an early utilitarian? That is, ethics are not some fancy abstract standard, but rather where the rubber hits the road in terms of practical reforms where the lives of actual human beings can go better.

Very much so. This extended to not only behavior but aslo beliefs. For example it's good to believe in ghosts because then you'll be scared of revenge from beyond the grave and not do bad things but it's bad to believe in fate because that will make you lazy.

One of the biggest barriers Mohism will face is just how clear and straightforward its main text is. Really easy to reinterpret Taoist and Confucian texts but the Mohists were ridiculously blunt. Well worth a read.

Doesn't allow for much wiggle room to fudge your way out of unpopular ideas like saying you should treat other people's fathers the same as your own.

Since Mohism is so anti-Confucian maybe have China become unified by a short-lived Confucian dynasty with Mohists rallying the resistance and taking over? Massive Confucian-themed extravagance paid for with your taxes could make Mohism look good.
 
Very much so. This extended to not only behavior but aslo beliefs. For example it's good to believe in ghosts because then you'll be scared of revenge from beyond the grave and not do bad things but it's bad to believe in fate because that will make you lazy.

One of the biggest barriers Mohism will face is just how clear and straightforward its main text is. Really easy to reinterpret Taoist and Confucian texts but the Mohists were ridiculously blunt. Well worth a read.

Doesn't allow for much wiggle room to fudge your way out of unpopular ideas like saying you should treat other people's fathers the same as your own.

Since Mohism is so anti-Confucian maybe have China become unified by a short-lived Confucian dynasty with Mohists rallying the resistance and taking over? Massive Confucian-themed extravagance paid for with your taxes could make Mohism look good.
Mohism's rigidity may not be as much of a problem as you think.
Both Confucianism and Taoism had quite early in their respective histories a reform movement (and later multiple) which drastically changed aspects of the philosophies to the point of becoming recognisable as religions (e.g. Taoism's immortals and the much later neoconfucianism which arose in response to buddhism's esoteric forms.

In a similar way, whilst the writings of Mozi were very straight forward, it can become esoteric or vague if we have another philosopher down the road unpack what is meant by tian/heaven in greater detail. There are many for instance who believe that the Taiping rebellion filtered Mohist ideas through a Christian lense.
 
CONSOLIDATE: Additional thought on the Xiongnu option -- confronted by this kind of threat, would Qin and Chu seek to diplomatically unite into a single kingdom?
And another thought, again assuming the Xiongnu option is viable -- if said empire still reaches far enough west to touch the borders of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom and put them in a stone's throw of the Maurya, it might (might) just be possible for the Central Asian empire to find itself with a sizable influx of Buddhist influence, which in turn makes its way to China much earlier than OTL.

Even if this is possible, you may wonder, why would it be a big change? Well, recall that Confucians (like Menicus) presented their philosophy as a sort of middle-way between (Yangist) individualist egoism (which TTL has likely tied to Daoism and the proto zen philosophy of Zhang Zhao) and (Mohist) egalitarian collective altruism (which by now TTL has likely become entwined with a form of Legalism); if there's a completely different philosophy that can offer a comprehensive way of bridging this divide before the ideas of Confucius can establish themselves as one of the pillars of Chinese civilization... well, if this is plausible, it would be the kind of change that would redefine a huge portion of subsequent human civilization, history, and consciousness for millennia to come.

But what do you guys think? Is that getting too crazy?
 
Mohism also needs to get rid of some of it's ideals like pacifism and fighting wars only in self-defense.Such an ideal is unlikely to sit well with a martially strong dynasty that has just unified the empire.It's worthwhile to note that early Confucianism wasn't actually pacifist--it actually advocated vengeance.
With Jing Ke successfully killing the King of Qin in 227 BCE as our PoD, how can Chinese history of the next few centuries be as altered as possible? When this PoD is usually discussed, the consensus is that the Unification of All Under Heaven is effectively inevitable by this point; so what other plausible effects are there that would change this new civilization (that OTL emerged from the Qin and Han empires) as much as possible?

For example, as the title implies, is it possible to save more of the schools of philosophy that were popular during the Spring and Autumn and Warring States period, such as Mohism or Yangism? Or for that matter, to curb the influence schools that dominated subsequent Chinese history, namely Confucianism?

What about other possible changes? Could the centralized bureaucracy established by the Qin Empire be weaker than OTL, making room for an enduring landed aristocracy? Woukd this period of unification last as long as it did OTL (over four centuries)? And depending on how China is changed, politically and culturally, how do the butterflies flap beyond their borders?

It's precisely because the Qin Empire couldn't get rid of the landed aristocracy that it got overthrow.The majority of the rebel movements against Qin were spearheaded by the former aristocrats of the six states.

The problem regarding the Qin Empire was that it's entire economy and society was geared for conquest.When it stopped conquering profitable territory,it's when the Qin Empire collapses.The Qing Empire was basically a totalitarian state where the people are harshly taxed and disciplined and that the only opportunity for living a better life would be through the rewards of good military service.
 
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