AHC: Modernization not Westernization

[Elfwine]

With a POD after Charlemagne, make it so that becoming part of "the modern world" as we know it - more or less - is not based on emulating Western Europe.

Western European nations may be included as examples of modern, advanced nations, but they must not be the standard by which progress and industrial power are judged.

Bonus points if you can leave the Mongol campaigns alone.

 

[RookieHistorian]

With a POD after Charlemagne, make it so that becoming part of "the modern world" as we know it - more or less - is not based on emulating Western Europe.

Western European nations may be included as examples of modern, advanced nations, but they must not be the standard by which progress and industrial power are judged.

Bonus points if you can leave the Mongol campaigns alone.

I don't think its really avoidable. The only real thing that might change is the name. It may become "Easternization" or "Arabication" or some such instead, if the modern advanced nations start showing up somewhere else.

Of course, this idea relies on it springing up only in one region first. Now, if modernization occurs randomly and sporadically throughout history....you may get simply the term modernization.

 

[Elfwine]

I don't think its really avoidable. The only real thing that might change is the name. It may become "Easternization" or "Arabication" or some such instead, if the modern advanced nations start showing up somewhere else.

Of course, this idea relies on it springing up only in one region first. Now, if modernization occurs randomly and sporadically throughout history....you may get simply the term modernization.

I'm looking to see it being something other than emulating Western Europe (as stated in the original post). It being "emulating China" or "Emulating the Fertile Crescent" would be quite suitable, if one can make it happen.

It being called "Easternization" or whatever doesn't matter.

 

[Pachac]

Orientalization may be good.

 

[eliphas8]

Well if the more inovative aspects of Islam and indian society continues to devolop while Europe becomes more and more divided between religious lines. Eastern european pagans become stronger and attack the christian parts, The east west schism has many nations going orthodox that whent catholic OTL, spain remains mostly muslim controlled. This could easily lead Europe to be a backwater while india, china, and the caliphates become major powers.

 

[Elfwine]

Well if the more inovative aspects of Islam and indian society continues to devolop. while Europe becomes more and more divided between religious lines
Eastern european pagans become stronger and attack the christian parts, The east west schism has many nations going orthodox that whent catholic OTL, spain remains mostly muslim controlled. This could easily lead Europe to be a backwater while india, china, and the caliphates become major powers.

Why would this (underlined) make Europe backward? Division along religious lines isn't the same thing as progress being strangled.

 

[eliphas8]

Why would this (underlined) make Europe backward? Division along religious lines isn't the same thing as progress being strangled.

A divided, weak, war torn Europe is a Europe that wont be able to get its act together enough to become powerful.

 

[Elfwine]

A divided, weak, war torn Europe is a Europe that wont be able to get its act together enough to become powerful.

Being divided, weak relative to the other Eurasian power centers up until seven or more centuries past Charlemagne, and with enough fighting for anyone's tastes didn't stop Europe OTL.

 

[eliphas8]

Being divided, weak relative to the other Eurasian power centers up until seven or more centuries past Charlemagne, and with enough fighting for anyone's tastes didn't stop Europe OTL.

My idea was that the Europeans would be divided into many tiny economically backwards rump states where they are constantly at war, basically how things turned out for the middle east and pre-british-conquest India OTL.

 

[Faeelin]

I think you could put it as late as the 17th century. A divided China where the Ming under Zheng Chenggong turn outward and compete for control of hte Indian Ocean, while the Qing end up using Jesuit science to subdue the steppes. If China stays open, Japan will almost certainly do so as well.

Not sure how to tie the Moghuls into this. But there's time for the tale of the Han Who Would be King.

 

[Philip]

A divided, weak, war torn Europe is a Europe that wont be able to get its act together enough to become powerful.

Um, how do you explain OTL then? Divided and war-torn is a rather good description of European history, isn't it?

As for 'acting together to become powerful', I am not sure when that happened. Maybe in dividing up Africa, but that is more accurately described as 'acting together so that we don't bump into one another now that we are powerful'.

My idea was that the Europeans would be divided into many tiny economically backwards rump states where they are constantly at war, basically how things turned out for the middle east and pre-british-conquest India OTL.

Okay, but the conditions you described do not lead to this state.

 

[eliphas8]

Okay, but the conditions you described do not lead to this state.

I realize that, it was just an idea that I thought could work there where many ways where Europe could have become that way.

 

[Falastur]

I would attribute, at least in part, the economically-desolate, balkanised nature of the Middle East to a combination of poor natural resources and trade access, and to being sandwiched by a variety of large regional powers. This is not a list of hardships that you can really apply to Europe very well.

It's far from impossible to make the East the centre of enlightenment, but I think trying to manage it by making Europe a financial and political wasteland is a very hard way of accomplishing it.