AHC: Maximum Spread and Usage of the Latin Alphabet

[Deleted member 67076]

It's not only about more men, it's more resources. The battle of alcacer quibir was a deep tactical error commited by King Sebastian, that ended up costing, presumably, his life and his kingdom. Such a dramatically disastrous battle must not be taken as a proof that north africa can't be conquered. At that time, it all comes to logistics and the degree of discipline and professionalization of a nation's army, including the resources it can muster. In all of these prospects,as I've said before, Spain has the absolute upper hand over the moorish sultanates, especially if there are no Habsburg distractions in their way.

Personally, I would disagree. The Saadi Sultanate had a professional army, and the later Alouite dynasty during the 1600s managed to field a standing army of near 100,000 troops. Most of them being Janissary style corps from Sahelian troops.

The maghreb is far from this unconquerable landmass you speak of.
Do these sultanates, by any chance, have endless manpower and peasants to tax as much as they like? Surely, there are also no internal divisions that can be exploited, as the north african people were fully united at that point. Even if they manage to repel the spanish initially, at what cost would this success come?

They don't need to. They have Ghazi soldiers and self sufficient Berber tribes that can be galvanized into attacking infidel troops (Which they historically were) to bleed the invaders dry. If anything, sending them off to fight the invaders would strengthen the Sultantes through a "Rally around the flag effect" as it would remove a major pressure to centralization and strengthen the legitimacy of the state through warfare.

Second, geography helps the Maghreb immensely. Morocco alone is the size of California, Algeria 3x the size of Texas, and Tunisia is the size of Honduras. This is mountainous, rugged terrain by and large where its difficult to patrol and centralize. (Which is why the region frequently splintered and reformed) To conquer all of this is no easy task.

The same question can be asked to Spain. The battle of Lepanto was largely Pyrric IMO, and Spanish a, ttempts to seize the Maghreb involved significant numbers of troops. Oran had around 15,000; Bougie 6000; Djerba 60 galleys and supporting craft' Siege of Malta 15,000 troops; etc. This isn't an easy commitment, even if the wars in Europe are avoided.

In the end, conquering north africa will not be easy, but it is nowhere near impossible. A smaller nation like portugal had fewer chances to accomplish such a feat, but a catholic juggernaut such as Spain would likely attempt and succeed in doing so. The only chance the berbers have is to ask for the help of the turks, which would have been kept in check more frequently by a dinastically cohesive Spain.

If the Turks get involved then there's no way Spain is taking the place. Without the Hapsburgs (or more precisely, the Netherlands) Spain and Austria would initially be weaker. The latter would lack the funds needed to keep the Turks at bay and the former is going to have much less administrators, access to credit, mercenaries, etc.

 

[frustrated progressive]

Would the adoption of the Latin alphabet ( at least for some purposes) be plausible if Japan was conquered by the Spanish or Portuguese? Would it eventually supplant the "indigenous" writing systems? Is this conquest itself plausible?

 

[M79]

Re: northern Africa -

*Battle of the 3 kings per OTL puts Spain in charge of Portugal
*al-Mansur dies shortly thereafter either by participating in the battle or because of ongoing court intrigue
*Philip ii negotiates a peace with the Statholder, creating a Prince of the United Netherlands (under the Spanish Empire) and sends his young son Diego to learn about his subjects. Diego will surcice to marry a Brangaza wife and create a truly united Iberian monarchy by blood and faith while avoiding the disastrous Hapsburg incest tendencies.
*Philip ii puts more resources into the Morroccan campaign and gets vengeance not only for taking down the killers of Sebastian I but also pushes into Ottoman Algeria over the next 10 years, reaching Tunis/Carriage in 1595 and vastly improving the road systems.
*Diego will take up the mantle against the Barbary Pirates in his early years reaching as far as Leptis Magna and even Adjabiya and winning a lot of respect for destroying the Barbary States outright.
*Using his eastern flank to keep Ottoman Egypt in check, a reverse Jizya is implemented and all Christian slaves are freed. As a result the Latin alphabet becomes more prominent and the major religion over the next century becomes Catholicism. Use of the same practices in Zanzibar, Sri Lanka, the Trucial States, and other colonies/conquests results in similar shifts in faith and language such that by 1950 Swahili is a much less common language and Arabic is only occasionally heard west of Tobruk.
*Without decades of warfare in the Netherlands and elsewhere, Spain in 1700 holds Portugal as well as Rousillion and much of Italy, where it's focus shifts to after 1600. Venice, Genoa, and Florence form a new Latin League while Milan, Lucca, Pisa, Naples, Sicily, and Sardinia all belong to Spain. Although the Papal States are ostensibly independent they are in fact a satellite of Madrid in all but name. Spanish holdings include most of the Western Hemisphere and Diego's descendants govern more as very powerful referees to individual players in increasingly centralized kingdoms slowly being united under their rule than as all-controlling monarchs constantly battling rowdy distant lords greedy for a crown.

 

[frustrated progressive]

Is there a major possibility of various Balkan (non-romance) languages switching from Cyrillic to the Latin script under prolonged occupation from a foreign power that uses it?

 

[Indicus]

Could any language in India adopt Latin Alphabet with some modification?

No. The Latin alphabet doesn't convey vowel length and there is no method whatsoever of noting the retroflex sounds, or the numerous nasals. It's way too complex, and the end result would be something as unwieldy as Vietnamese orthography, albeit with no reason to adopt such a script.

The preexisting Indian scripts work great, and there's no need to change them.

 

[Indicus]

Would the adoption of the Latin alphabet ( at least for some purposes) be plausible if Japan was conquered by the Spanish or Portuguese? Would it eventually supplant the "indigenous" writing systems? Is this conquest itself plausible?

I wouldn't say so. Assuming some sort of conquest, what real reason do they have to adopt a Latin script? Unlike Malay, with its use of an unwieldy adapted Perso-Arabic script, the Japanese script works fine, and unlike the Vietnamese, there is no nationalist reason to adopt a Latin script

 

[frustrated progressive]

I wouldn't say so. Assuming some sort of conquest, what real reason do they have to adopt a Latin script? Unlike Malay, with its use of an unwieldy adapted Perso-Arabic script, the Japanese script works fine, and unlike the Vietnamese, there is no nationalist reason to adopt a Latin script

Well that scenario would include some pressure from above. The question is whether the conquered Japanese bend to it.

 

[Indicus]

Well that scenario would include some pressure from above. The question is whether the conquered Japanese bend to it.

I doubt it. Japan has a strong literary culture and a relatively unified history of governance. Unless, say, Spain goes all Inquisition on Japan, I don't see how the Japanese would change their script.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

Uh... OTL is a pretty good example?

 

[Damian0358]

Have Pope Nicholas I respond to Rastislav of Moravia's envoys, asking him to send missionaries to Moravia who mastered the Slavic language, and do just that.

The lack of a response from Rome would ultimately have Rastislav ask the same thing to Byzantine Emperor Michael III, who would send the two brothers we know today as Saints Cyril and Methodius, who would go on to create the Glagolitic script, followed by the creation of Cyrillic by their students. At the same time, the established relations with Constantinople would for a time serve as a counter to a Bulgaro-Frankish alliance which had formed against Great Moravia.

If Rome had responded to Rastislav's envoys, not only is the influence of Frankish priests in Great Moravia, who served the interests of East Francia, reduced to a degree, along with proper relations with Rome and a possible longer reign for Rastislav, but we also butterfly away the existence of OTL's Old Church Slavonic, and with it, Glagolitic and Cyrillic, with Latin being seen as the preferred choice of script for Slavic-speaking states.

 

[manitobot]

China and India romanize their logography and abugidas, respectively.

 

[David T]

"In the Meiji era (1868–1912), some Japanese scholars advocated abolishing the Japanese writing system entirely and using rōmaji instead." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Japanese#As_a_replacement_for_Japanese_writing_system Some Occupation authorities also toyed with the idea after World War II. But the odds were always against it; it involved too great a cultural break with the past.

 

[Whiteshore]

Chinese modernizers deciding that the traditional script is a hinderance to the introduction of mass literacy and decide to adopt a pinyin-esque writing system?

 

[Lalli]

There was some attempts of latinise Chinese language but it was too difficult operation and plan was abandoned.

 

[PhilippeO]

I doubt it. Japan has a strong literary culture and a relatively unified history of governance. Unless, say, Spain goes all Inquisition on Japan, I don't see how the Japanese would change their script.

But Latin could replace Hiragana and Katakana, neither had high status. and huge number of translated words would make Latin alphabet dominate modern printed materials.