AHC: Maximum Lithuania Wank

I know the challenge in the title is kind of my job, and I am definitely not looking for ideas, but I think it is interesting enough and different enough from my TL that all of you can have a shot. Plus, I don't think this challenge in particular was ever proposed, or at least I can't find one.

So. With a POD no earlier than 1240 AD (unification of the Lithuanian tribes into a single state by Mindaugas), make Lithuania as large and powerful as possible at 1900 AD. One major requirement, though - the state must not Ruthenize and basically turn into Ruthenia/Russia with a Lithuanian coat.
 
Lithuania must expand Eastwards immediately after Mongol invasion; miss this chance and you won't even get OTL's Lithuania-wank.

More wank without full Russification is only possible by balancing Rus influences with others. So I"d say nip the Order in the bud and swallow the fellow Baltic Prussians next, followed by a few helpings of Uralic and North germanic neighbours. Might create a more maritime lithuania, and from there... the sky is the limit!
 

PhilippeO

Banned
There are problem with successful Lithuania. a successful Lithuania will spread to Volga, Vistula, or Dnieper. there will be temptation to move capital to Lublin, Kiev, or Tver. so it will ruthenize (if move to Volga or Dnieper) or polishsize (if moving to Vistula). or it might crack altogether, with governor of riverine city ignoring central government in Vilna.
 
I would say adopting Catholicism would polarize the ethnic groups of Lithuanians and Ruthenians. Ostracize Orthodox churches and populace while giving people benefits, albeit very small, for joining the Catholic Church would work greatly in favour of Lithuanizing the population. Good (or at least better than Orthodox) Catholic education using Latin instead of OCS will also undermine the urge to stay with the rest of the Orthodox Ruthenians and thus break ties with your local community and family. If Lithuanian becomes the language of trade, it will become hard to convince anyone to stay Russian.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
I would say adopting Catholicism would polarize the ethnic groups of Lithuanians and Ruthenians. Ostracize Orthodox churches and populace while giving people benefits, albeit very small, for joining the Catholic Church would work greatly in favour of Lithuanizing the population. Good (or at least better than Orthodox) Catholic education using Latin instead of OCS will also undermine the urge to stay with the rest of the Orthodox Ruthenians and thus break ties with your local community and family. If Lithuanian becomes the language of trade, it will become hard to convince anyone to stay Russian.
On the other hand a Orthodox Lithuania would probably over time be Slavified, some Lithuanian nobility already were OTL.
 
Does anyone else feel like that the big problem with a Lithuania wank is not actually making it big or making it stay big, but rather making it stay Lithuania?

That's the impression I'm getting from the discussion so far at least.

I would say adopting Catholicism would polarize the ethnic groups of Lithuanians and Ruthenians. Ostracize Orthodox churches and populace while giving people benefits, albeit very small, for joining the Catholic Church would work greatly in favour of Lithuanizing the population. Good (or at least better than Orthodox) Catholic education using Latin instead of OCS will also undermine the urge to stay with the rest of the Orthodox Ruthenians and thus break ties with your local community and family. If Lithuanian becomes the language of trade, it will become hard to convince anyone to stay Russian.
An intolerant Catholic Lithuania would most likely not last very long. The main factor in it managing to stay large and relatively without unrest were the extremely tolerant religious policies of the Lithuanian nation.
 
Does anyone else feel like that the big problem with a Lithuania wank is not actually making it big or making it stay big, but rather making it stay Lithuania?

That's the impression I'm getting from the discussion so far at least.


An intolerant Catholic Lithuania would most likely not last very long. The main factor in it managing to stay large and relatively without unrest were the extremely tolerant religious policies of the Lithuanian nation.
I fully agree to both.
A Russia called Lithuania can of course be as big as OTL Russia, or even OTL Soviet Union plus Alaska.
My counter-proposal for a more Baltic Lithuania limits it at least in the beginningn maybe even permanent.
The problem is rooted in the fact that other languages and cultures had either huge numbers or high Prestige and good international connections or both going for them. That, in turn, comes from Lithuania and fellow Balts being a tiny backwater for much of history.
That can be changed, but not without a PoD before 1240.

I still think a balancing route and quintessential modernisation impulses could still make late medieval lithuania so large and so Lithuanian that by the 1920s, Lithuania is still larger than OTL. That would be largely at the expense of immediate neighbours.
 
Remind me how that went for the other eastern Europeans who stayed pagan? Lithuania had to go Christian.
Unless, of course, we get a PoD before 1240.
With different Mongols, or no crusades, or whatever, pagan Lithuania could have other options. But of course then the map would look quite irrecognisable.
 
Does anyone else feel like that the big problem with a Lithuania wank is not actually making it big or making it stay big, but rather making it stay Lithuania?

That's the impression I'm getting from the discussion so far at least.


An intolerant Catholic Lithuania would most likely not last very long. The main factor in it managing to stay large and relatively without unrest were the extremely tolerant religious policies of the Lithuanian nation.
Depends on ho you define Lithuanian.. As in the Baltic tribe? Or as in the greater Lithuania or what is today belarus, which considers themselves Lithuania.

If it's the Baltic tribe then well much beyond present borders is wank. If it's belarus then one could get expansion to the east if they can find partners to be allies with.

They could also move west and attempt to absorb Poland

Really thy were quite large in OTL. If you can have them keep their territories for a logger period that would be helpful
 
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