AHC: Maximum 2nd Spanish or 2nd Dutch empires

raharris1973

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Britain and France had the distinction of gaining empires, losing empires and then gaining new ones.

Britain lost its most populous and important overseas imperial territory in 1783, but got back on its heels and claimed an even larger and more populous empire from 1788 (with settling Australia) with gradually increasing speed through the 19th century till the 1880-1919 era where it seemed on a mad quest to color the map pink.

France lost its largest, if not most populous or profitable, overseas possessions 20 years earlier, in 1763, yielding its North American territory to Britain and Spain.

The French Revolutionary and Napoleonic era featured an interlude of attempted empire-building on the European continent. But with the conquest of Algeria in 1830, then with gradually increasing speed through the 19th century till the 1880-1919 era where it seemed on a mad quest the color the map pink.

Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is much bigger 2nd empires for Spain and the Netherlands:

OTL, Spain, after losing Spanish America, gained only Rio Muni and parts of Morocco for its rather third-rate overseas empire.

How could Spain have taken over larger, more important or more populous territories after 1830?

OTL the Netherlands, after losing the Cape, kept losing African territories and never made a second empire, except for fleshing out the DEI.

How could the Netherlands have taken over larger, more important or more populous territories after 1815?
 

raharris1973

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i suspect the biggest room for imperial growth would come from the scramble for Africa, though some additional expansion in Asia or
the Pacific cannot be ruled out.
 
Britain and France had the distinction of gaining empires, losing empires and then gaining new ones.

Britain lost its most populous and important overseas imperial territory in 1783, but got back on its heels and claimed an even larger and more populous empire from 1788 (with settling Australia) with gradually increasing speed through the 19th century till the 1880-1919 era where it seemed on a mad quest to color the map pink.

France lost its largest, if not most populous or profitable, overseas possessions 20 years earlier, in 1763, yielding its North American territory to Britain and Spain.

The French Revolutionary and Napoleonic era featured an interlude of attempted empire-building on the European continent. But with the conquest of Algeria in 1830, then with gradually increasing speed through the 19th century till the 1880-1919 era where it seemed on a mad quest the color the map pink.

Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is much bigger 2nd empires for Spain and the Netherlands:

OTL, Spain, after losing Spanish America, gained only Rio Muni and parts of Morocco for its rather third-rate overseas empire.

How could Spain have taken over larger, more important or more populous territories after 1830?

OTL the Netherlands, after losing the Cape, kept losing African territories and never made a second empire, except for fleshing out the DEI.

How could the Netherlands have taken over larger, more important or more populous territories after 1815?

What exactly do you want as POD? After the Congress of Vienna? Or during the congress? If during the congress we might get a better deal for the Netherlands than OTL. Sure, the loss of the Cape colony and Cylon are still likely, but they might keep western (British) Guyana. They might for example lose Luxemburg and a large part of south eastern Belgium, but gain Eas-Frisia and areas in that neighbourhood in return. Those might be just the thing to avoid a Belgian revolt or being able to nip it in the bud. That would give the Dutch a greater population to expand their colonial empire.

Other ideas which require a slightly earlier POD would be no Singapore,which could cause a Dutch Malaysia (because no Singapore would lessen the interest of the British in that area).

Without an earlier POD, I think best is either a failed Belgium revolution or a division of Belgium between France and the Netherlands. Easiest colonial expansion for the Dutch could be in that case the rest of Borneo, a Dutch Gold coast, maybe some pacific islands a Dutch Congo (the biggest cliche of all and rather unlikely, but I wanted to mention it). If the Dutch could make a deal with Britain, I could even see a Dutch western Australia, assuming the British aren't interested in it and still want to keep the French out. Unlike though, I will admit it.

In the end the biggest problem is that the Netherlands in the 19th century was a rather poor nation, unable to colonise much more than OTL and they knew it, so they didn't overextend themselves.
 

raharris1973

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After the CoV.
when specifically after that is up to responder.

I like the entry on the Dutch.

For the Spanish i think what is needed is a more internally stable Spain that avoids the Carlist wars a nd generally has its act together after the 1820. Potential fields for expansion in a second wave spanish empire include: Morrocco and Mauretania and the Saharan interior. In Asia portions of northern and eastern Borneo, possibly parts of Vietnam. Getting to Cameroon before the Germans from equatorial Guinea might be a possibility too. Possibly Spain could get some treaty port rights or less likely Taiwan or Hainan, if they are the 3rd musketeer to Britain and France in the 2nd Opium war.
 

Deleted member 97083

Could the Dutch have settled Western Australia after Congress of Vienna, but before the establishment of Swan Colony?
 
Could the Dutch have settled Western Australia after Congress of Vienna, but before the establishment of Swan Colony?
Only if the British agree with it. Actualy I would even say, only with the help of the British.
So the only way it would happen if the British decide they don't care about Western Australia, but don't want the French to have it.
 
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