AHC: Maximize the Conversions and Peaceful Spread of Christianity Before 7th Century

[water123]

You could even theoretically have a Chinese emperor convert to a form of Christianity. IOTL there were Christians in China in 635, and Emperor Taizhong was very interested in the religion. Just have him convert to Christianity and yet still be tolerant, and allow missionaries to propagate the faith extensively, and eventually Christianity will kind of trickle down.

However, China would not be a Christian nation. At absolute best it would be a significant minority, with Christian emperors coming and going, but unless there is a whole Christian Dynasty, there is no real motivation to convert the entire nation.


EDIT: Could you have a Christian Mohammad at this time period and then have him go east instead of west?

 

[PhilippeO]

I think it curious why Christianity managed to establish itself in Western Indian Ocean Trade Route : Egypt, Axum, Kerala. But totally failed to establish itself in Eastern Indian Ocean Trade Route : Malacca strait, Bengal, West Sumatra. is there reason for this failure ? who control eastern trade route pre-Srivijaya ?

 

[Isfendil]

You could even theoretically have a Chinese emperor convert to a form of Christianity. IOTL there were Christians in China in 635, and Emperor Taizhong was very interested in the religion. Just have him convert to Christianity and yet still be tolerant, and allow missionaries to propagate the faith extensively, and eventually Christianity will kind of trickle down.

However, China would not be a Christian nation. At absolute best it would be a significant minority, with Christian emperors coming and going, but unless there is a whole Christian Dynasty, there is no real motivation to convert the entire nation.


EDIT: Could you have a Christian Mohammad at this time period and then have him go east instead of west?

Certainly the divergences produced by this discussion could easily make a Christian Arabia or larger presence in China, but we're trying to work out how to get there at the moment.

 

[Isfendil]

I think it curious why Christianity managed to establish itself in Western Indian Ocean Trade Route : Egypt, Axum, Kerala. But totally failed to establish itself in Eastern Indian Ocean Trade Route : Malacca strait, Bengal, West Sumatra. is there reason for this failure ? who control eastern trade route pre-Srivijaya ?

I am studying Southeast Asia at the moment, and generally religions only gain political ground there as part of bolstering the legitimacy of rulers, usually to aid in their accruing of autonomous power or as part of some sort of rebellion. I think it was mentioned earlier that Christianity did actually make inroads here but never caught on, and I suspect that is because it didn't manage to get to the right places at the right time. It reaching the ear of a regional warlord ready to launch a rebellion (such as the king-turned-Sultan of Melaka, although that was much later) might change things.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

1. Rome is able to somehow conquer Germania or setup a wide range of Roman influenced client states all through Germania up to Poland.

By the time Christianity solidifies in Rome, it will get a head start in those regions that where not fully christianized until Charlemagne.

2. The Kingdom of Axum defeats the Quryaish at Makkah and retains control of the western Arabian seaboard. This leads to a stronger Christian presence in Arabia in the areas most important, Yemen and Hijaz.

I do not believe any other state can do this task other than Axum however. A Roman state would not likely be able to enforce authority once the Hijaz begins to reach its maximum in population.

Whether this region becomes syncretic or not, it will still be nominally Christian. It also creates a continuum of Rome to Axum of Christian churches and entities. This leads to the Red Sea truly being a Christian stronghold for trade and knowledge.

3. Find a way to snuff out Mani before he can preach or destroy his religion in the womb. This would make Christianity of its many iterations, the only faith amongst the Syriac world.

4. The Christians in India do better early on. Then once the Axumites convert, these areas of India gain prerogatives for their religion. This leads to many Indian states adopting Christian symbols or outright Christianity to gain trading privileges in the Red Sea. As well, this would lead to Christian propagation in Somalia and the Maldives.

I personally cannot however see Christianity gaining headway in the following areas:

-Iranian plateau
-Northern India
-Bengal
-Baluchistan
-Oman
-Eastern Arabia
-Sogdia
-Ghandhara and Zabulistan
-Pontic steppe past Crimea
-Russia
-Baltic Coast
-Scandinavia
-China
-Indonesia/Malacca
-Zimbabwe/Mozambique
-Kongo
-Sahel and West Africa
-Japan
-Mongolia
-Southeast Asia

 

[Isfendil]

1. Rome is able to somehow conquer Germania or setup a wide range of Roman influenced client states all through Germania up to Poland.

By the time Christianity solidifies in Rome, it will get a head start in those regions that where not fully christianized until Charlemagne.

2. The Kingdom of Axum defeats the Quryaish at Makkah and retains control of the western Arabian seaboard. This leads to a stronger Christian presence in Arabia in the areas most important, Yemen and Hijaz.

I do not believe any other state can do this task other than Axum however. A Roman state would not likely be able to enforce authority once the Hijaz begins to reach its maximum in population.

Whether this region becomes syncretic or not, it will still be nominally Christian. It also creates a continuum of Rome to Axum of Christian churches and entities. This leads to the Red Sea truly being a Christian stronghold for trade and knowledge.

3. Find a way to snuff out Mani before he can preach or destroy his religion in the womb. This would make Christianity of its many iterations, the only faith amongst the Syriac world.

4. The Christians in India do better early on. Then once the Axumites convert, these areas of India gain prerogatives for their religion. This leads to many Indian states adopting Christian symbols or outright Christianity to gain trading privileges in the Red Sea. As well, this would lead to Christian propagation in Somalia and the Maldives.

I personally cannot however see Christianity gaining headway in the following areas:

-Iranian plateau
-Northern India
-Bengal
-Baluchistan
-Oman
-Eastern Arabia
-Sogdia
-Ghandhara and Zabulistan
-Pontic steppe past Crimea
-Russia
-Baltic Coast
-Scandinavia
-China
-Indonesia/Malacca
-Zimbabwe/Mozambique
-Kongo
-Sahel and West Africa
-Japan
-Mongolia
-Southeast Asia

Well no religion can conquer the globe, but this fulfills the exercise. I think Mani being a missionary instead of a Prophet might do double the necessary work.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

Well no religion can conquer the globe, but this fulfills the exercise. I think Mani being a missionary instead of a Prophet might do double the necessary work.

Yes but this would be a world or at least one heavily dominated by some form of universal church like fixture. I see massive wars over religious titles such as Roman Emperor and or Pope. These wars would be interrupted intermittently by non Christian acters such as a Zoroastrian power base in Iran or a Hindu state which is perhaps able to redo and rescind Christian influence in Southern India as Japan did in the 1500s, in a lot of ways, this India would resemble Japanese Christian states.

In this scenario, Buddhism and Hinduism does extremely better than otl. Hinduism and Buddhism make up all of southern and Southeast Asia and likely expand into parts of Central Asia possibly with the Turks, Qhara Qhitan, Mongols and Naiman. One of these religions could thus be taken as far west as Russia in this timeline or into Europe via the Black Sea. Iran will almost certainly remain Zoroastrian unless an extrodinary event occurs removing them. In the long run, this could have the effect of Persianizing Oman and Baluchistan. Areas like Afghanistan and Sogdia would be battle grounds between Iranian, Chinese and Hindu spheres of influence, and in short order, Gokturks and consécutive Turkic hordes.

This tl is definitely a wank of Christian range and numbers but perhaps not it's development, especially the development of Europe. Which is likely drawn into wars all over the Mediterranean world over keeping some sort of encompassing Christian world under a single or dual or tri or what have you, emperor(s).

 

[Isfendil]

Yes but this would be a world or at least one heavily dominated by some form of universal church like fixture. I see massive wars over religious titles such as Roman Emperor and or Pope. These wars would be interrupted intermittently by non Christian acters such as a Zoroastrian power base in Iran or a Hindu state which is perhaps able to redo and rescind Christian influence in Southern India as Japan did in the 1500s, in a lot of ways, this India would resemble Japanese Christian states.

In this scenario, Buddhism and Hinduism does extremely better than otl. Hinduism and Buddhism make up all of southern and Southeast Asia and likely expand into parts of Central Asia possibly with the Turks, Qhara Qhitan, Mongols and Naiman. One of these religions could thus be taken as far west as Russia in this timeline or into Europe via the Black Sea. Iran will almost certainly remain Zoroastrian unless an extrodinary event occurs removing them. In the long run, this could have the effect of Persianizing Oman and Baluchistan. Areas like Afghanistan and Sogdia would be battle grounds between Iranian, Chinese and Hindu spheres of influence, and in short order, Gokturks and consécutive Turkic hordes.

This tl is definitely a wank of Christian range and numbers but perhaps not it's development, especially the development of Europe. Which is likely drawn into wars all over the Mediterranean world over keeping some sort of encompassing Christian world under a single or dual or tri or what have you, emperor(s).

Dharma versus Abraham. I like this strange world... Also, you'd think that maybe Christianity is probably going to be more schismatic even than OTL? Especially given that it is so large and it encompasses a wide variety of polities? Furthermore, if Christianity does not penetrate into the Sahel, then what is to become of those polities should they be left alone? Who will trade with them? How will their religions turn out? And their ethics? If the Christians are too busy fighting among themselves, will that allow this region to insulate itself from the possibility of colonialism?

 

[Timaeus]

Dharma versus Abraham. I like this strange world... Also, you'd think that maybe Christianity is probably going to be more schismatic even than OTL? Especially given that it is so large and it encompasses a wide variety of polities? Furthermore, if Christianity does not penetrate into the Sahel, then what is to become of those polities should they be left alone? Who will trade with them? How will their religions turn out? And their ethics? If the Christians are too busy fighting among themselves, will that allow this region to insulate itself from the possibility of colonialism?

Most likely Christianity will split into a bunch of different churches, whether its the Roman Chalcedonians, the Persian Nestorians, the Armenian Apostolics, the Coptic Miaphysites, or even the surviving Germanic Arians. Those are probably the most important divisions, aside from weird syncretic seepage into the Rus', the Sahel, and other places later on.

As for colonialism, well... eh. Christians fighting among themselves didn't stop one of the more active fighters (Catholic Spain under Charles I and Philip II) from also fighting wars against the Ottomans and forging the first really global empire IOTL, with colonies in the New World and in Asia and in Africa. So... yeah.

 

[Isfendil]

Most likely Christianity will split into a bunch of different churches, whether its the Roman Chalcedonians, the Persian Nestorians, the Armenian Apostolics, the Coptic Miaphysites, or even the surviving Germanic Arians. Those are probably the most important divisions, aside from weird syncretic seepage into the Rus', the Sahel, and other places later on.

As for colonialism, well... eh. Christians fighting among themselves didn't stop one of the more active fighters (Catholic Spain under Charles I and Philip II) from also fighting wars against the Ottomans and forging the first really global empire IOTL, with colonies in the New World and in Asia and in Africa. So... yeah.

The press for new trade routes ought not to be as high as OTL though, especially if Christiandom extends to the entire Red Sea region uninterrupted. Furthermore, if Central Asia becomes dharmic, and is of course going to generate new steppe hordes as it always does, then I think that major antagonism is going to develop between Christians and Hindu/Buddhists.
I like the idea of India being sort of like Castille or Japan, expunging itself of the religion and demonizing it. I wonder if naval Hindu rajas are going to compete with the Red Sea kingdoms to control East Africa? Then again, I think with Axum not beset by enemies on all sides that East Africa is on the path to being a firmly christian region.
Also, I just realised... You used a post contact colonial power as an example of colonialism still progressing. That doesn't seem like good support to me...

 

[Evan]

I agree expanding St. Thomas's mission in India is the best way to go. Let's say it really was founded by Thomas himself, to get the earliest possible date - and given the commerce across the Arabian Sea, it's not implausible. Unfortunately, I'm not that familiar with India in that period, but is there some way to get the church there to grow as organically over time as the church in Rome?

And if they could get to China earlier, too...

Also, this may go a bit outside the box, but is it possible that in India, Christianity could form a belief synthesis with local traditions? I am not sure about ideas of sexual propriety and iconoclasm gaining much ground in India.

I've heard a hypothesis that exactly that happened iOTL, the Hindu elements grew to push out the Christian elements, and that's where the story of Krishna comes from. Again, though, I haven't looked into this myself.

But, I think there's some way to at least somewhat integrate Christianity into Indian culture in a way more recognizable as Christianity. Perhaps they could emphasize icons of the saints, like the medieval OTL church?

 

[Isfendil]

I agree expanding St. Thomas's mission in India is the best way to go. Let's say it really was founded by Thomas himself, to get the earliest possible date - and given the commerce across the Arabian Sea, it's not implausible. Unfortunately, I'm not that familiar with India in that period, but is there some way to get the church there to grow as organically over time as the church in Rome?

And if they could get to China earlier, too...

I've heard a hypothesis that exactly that happened iOTL, the Hindu elements grew to push out the Christian elements, and that's where the story of Krishna comes from. Again, though, I haven't looked into this myself.

But, I think there's some way to at least somewhat integrate Christianity into Indian culture in a way more recognizable as Christianity. Perhaps they could emphasize icons of the saints, like the medieval OTL church?

John is of the opinion that India is not going to welcome this influence period, and honestly, I'm inclined to agree the more I think about it. Hinduism may not be a strictly polytheistic religion, but it is organized (albeit into multipke different subreligions), has an enormous, heavily supportive population base (in theory, unless a boom happened between then and now that I don't know of) and much like Japanese Shinto, is heavily ingrained into the culture of the practitioners, who also live in a place with very complex, often violent politics. It sounds way too familiar to me.

 

[CalBear]

If you think obnoxiousness is going to help produce better discussion, well good luck with that.

Please do NOT do this.

 

[CalBear]

You came in here with absolutely nothing to contribute to call me out on something I didn't do and I am the one being obnoxious? I have nothing more to say to or hear from you.

STOP!

Now.

 

[Isfendil]

STOP!

Now.

I followed your command before you gave it. Next time I will know not to respond and to report the post when someone tries to gaslight me.

 

[Indicus]

I agree expanding St. Thomas's mission in India is the best way to go. Let's say it really was founded by Thomas himself, to get the earliest possible date - and given the commerce across the Arabian Sea, it's not implausible. Unfortunately, I'm not that familiar with India in that period, but is there some way to get the church there to grow as organically over time as the church in Rome?

It would, but organic growth likely means syncretism. For instance, as worship of Shiva and Vishnu traveled southward in the Indian subcontinent, they were worshipped alongside local gods, and a local strand of Hinduism was created. I don't see how Christianity would be very different. You may see Jesus worshipped as one of the many forms of God if the Indian Christians actively proselytize (rather than just cease to convert as IOTL).

I've heard a hypothesis that exactly that happened iOTL, the Hindu elements grew to push out the Christian elements, and that's where the story of Krishna comes from. Again, though, I haven't looked into this myself.

That's quite impossible as the Mahabharata, which features Krishna as a core character, seems to have been written in the third century BC, before Christianity. If any syncretism took place, it would have been with Herakles, not Jesus. In any case, the most plausible explanation that I've found is that Krishna was initially a local god in some Indian region who was conflated with Vishnu.

And even if the Mahabharata was misdated, which is possible, I believe the Greeks reference the armies of Porus (the one that faced Alexander the Great) as having banners of "Herakles". The Greeks tended to conflate Herakles with Krishna, so the armies of Porus likely worshipped Krishna.

Similarities such as both having virgin births don't really amount to much.