AHC: Marseille, a maritime republic

Vitruvius

Donor
I think you would need a POD around 950AD. If you eliminate Boso II, Count of Arles then you can preempt his descendents from consolidating power as Counts of Provence. Conversely if his two brothers survive then the area remains divided. Either way there is no strong central power in Provence leaving cities like Marseille great autonomy. Yet Marseille would also have to fend for itself vis a vis the Saracens at Fraxinet. There would be no William the Liberator to expel the Saracens. So perhaps Marseille develops as a strong city state to secure its autonomy against the various noble lords competing for power in Provence and to defend against Saracen pirates.

Marseille eventually takes Fraxinet setting it on a course that will establish a modest Maritime empire. They get involved with Byzantium and later the Crusades. I'd imaging they ending up competing with Genova and Pisa for Sardinia. Meanwhile their hinterland in Provence remains divided into small counties, Avignon, Arles maybe Forcalquier and Baux too, all under the theoretical authority of the King of Arles who, as HRE, is perpetually absent. As the Kings' powers fade more and more and Marseille's maritime empire wanes the city can expand in land much as Venice did into the Terra Firma. So eventually most of Provence is controlled by the Marseille.

The hardest part is jump starting the city in the mid-late 10th century. It needs to rapidly develop a coherent civic government of some sort as well as a navy strong enough to repel the Saracens. If it can secure its independence or at least autonomy and defeat the Saracens at Fraxinet by the end of the century then the rest is easy.
 
We would have Marseille holding southern Provence, and having the role of intermediary between France and Italia.

There would be a fierce competition for the supremacy in western Mediterranean sea.
We could see the Balearic Islands conquered by Marseille instead of Aragon.

I thought, since the eastern trade would be almost monopolized by Genoa and Venice, Marseille could be more involved in trade with North Africa, maybe in the trans-Saharan trade.

In the end, maybe that the ships reaching India by going round Africa would be from Marseille.
 
We would have Marseille holding southern Provence, and having the role of intermediary between France and Italia.

There would be a fierce competition for the supremacy in western Mediterranean sea.
We could see the Balearic Islands conquered by Marseille instead of Aragon.

I thought, since the eastern trade would be almost monopolized by Genoa and Venice, Marseille could be more involved in trade with North Africa, maybe in the trans-Saharan trade.

In the end, maybe that the ships reaching India by going round Africa would be from Marseille.

It would be called Marsilha/Marselha(Marsiyo) if it remains indpendent.
 
What would be the ships used to go around Africa?
When?
What would be the consequences, politically as economically, if the merchants of 'Marselha' were able to reach India?
 
Probably it is a combination of different reasons (presence of Saracens at Fraxinet, strong feudal government, competition from other trading cities - Genoa, Barcelon, Narbonne). IIRC the city declined very fast after the Carolingians and during the 10th century was quite destituted (by comparison, both Genoa and Pisa prospered during the 10th century, and at the beginning of the 11th they were already trading and raiding in the Levant and North Africa). In a way the fate of Marseille is similar to what happened to Amalfi: even before the consolidation of the kingdom of Sicily the free comune had to submit to the princes of Salerno; however Amalfi at least had a short time in the sun, Marseille did not: this is quite surprising.

It is not easy to find a solution: out of the top of my mind, an alliance with Genoa appears the easiest way (it would not be an alliance of equals, though); the alternative might be playing Provence against Anjou against Toulose and flirting with Barcelon/Aragon and Genoa. The latter would be a very risky game, and Marseille might very easily end up crushed and sacked.

If they find a way to gain at least a measure of independence, trading with the Levant is still an option. A participation to the crusades (as an embarkation port and the supplier of ships) would also be a possibility. IMHO trade with north Africa only would not be enough.
In the end I would believe that Marseille will become part of a larger state, be it Provence or France (or even a renewed kingdom of Arles in the HRE): the city does not have natural defenses such as to support a bid for independence nor the population to try and conquest inland.

You may want to check Tuscan Sons, a TL written by Shadow Knight and to which I contributed. In it Marseille is a free comune and has underwritten the Lesser Pact among the free cities and the HRE (or better the count palatine of Italy). The focus is not on Marseille, though.

The first voyage to the Cape was in 1470s (Bartolomeu Dias). Vasco de Gama had his 1st trip to India and back in 1497.
 
I think that Marseille could play a role of intermediary between Christiannity and islam (like Venice did).

However, there could be big wars against Lyon (which became very powerful during the XIII-XVth century) for the access to the sea and the control of the trade over the Rhone, which was THE biggest axis of trade at that time.

Though, a TL with Marseille independent is very plausible. The only question is with how many lands around.
 
Alternatively, given that it was in the HRE, at least nominally, anyway, maybe have it become a Free Imperial City or Hansa state? It'd be a later POD, but still room for interesting stuff.
 

Vitruvius

Donor
I think LordKalvan did a good job articulating the challenges to Marseille and I would stand by the need for a POD no later than the mid 10th century. Since this would predate the Arelate Kingdoms incorporation into the HRE an independent Maritime Republic of Marseille would likely remain apart from the Empire and France much like Venice.

The Balearics and some portion of Corsica/Sardinia is likely as is the Riviera/Provencal littoral. It would probably go after Nice, Toulon, Arles and Montpellier before long to ensure that no rival emmerged in the area much as Venice ensured that Ancona, Ravenna, Zadar etc never emerged as rivals in the Adriatic. But I don't see the city controlling much of Provence before the late 15th century even given some substantial butterflies. There's just no reason for a terrestrial empire before that. And even then it would be limited to Provence and/or eastern Languedoc (Montpellier/Melgueil/Nimes).

I suppose if Genoa was able to maintain its independence Marseille could too. Butterflies may weaken the French presence in Provence and perhaps the Spanish too, if there's even a Spain to speak of.
 
From what I've just read during my searches, if we kill Boso II around 950AD, we would have the viscounts of Marseille independents, with Arlulf then Pons of Marseille.
IOTL, in late 10th century, the viscounty seems to stretch from Fos to the mouth of the Argens, near Fréjus.
But in a context of break-up of the provencal counties created by Conrad III, Marseille wouldn't be the sole independent city. IOTL, Marseille, Arles and Avignon were independent city-states in the first half of 13th century.
 
IOTL, the city of Arles, Avignon and Marseille were de facto independent republics, until their conquest by Charles Ist of Anjou in 1251.
Is there a possibility of POD at this time?
 

Vitruvius

Donor
Say that Charles of Anjou dies in Egypt, is it too late to make Marseille a maritime republic?

I think its possible that Marseille becomes an independent Republic after this but not a maritime one. By 1250 Marseille will have missed out on the crusades and the ability to establish inroads in the levant, it will have missed the 4th crusade and the partition of the Byzantine Empire, it will have missed the reconquest of the Balearics which are firmly under a Spanish dynasty as the Kingdom of Majorca. So its trying to build a maritime empire from scratch when most of the Mediterranean is already in the hands of its well established would be rivals. In fact Genoa is in the process of finally breaking the power of the Republic of Pisa and securing its position in Corsica and to a lesser extent Sardinia. The other Maritime Republics like Amalfi have long since fallen by the wayside.

With such a late POD its more likely Marseille would parallel the development of the Italian city state Republics like Florence, Siena or Lucca which all emerged around this time frame as opposed to the maritime Republics that came much earlier. They developed as regional feudal authority broke down and civic authorities, mercenaries and local clans and families competed for power. So its possible a strong Republic of Marseille could emerge but its more likely to be a Provencal state than a maritime trading empire. It could have a strong commercial interest in trade in southern France and the western Mediterranean but its unlikely to establish colonies or outposts outside Provence, possess a substantial fleet, or influence international politics in the way Venice or Genoa did.
 
All good points. The first crusade is ven more important, since Genoa and Pisa took great advantage out of a participation in it, securing commercial footholds in the major ports of Outremer (Venice's participation was pretty low tone, given the good relations with the ERE at the time).

IMHO, Marseille has to make its move by the end of 10th century, and it may even be too late (Pisa was already sending fleets to support Otto's adventures in southern Italy by 950, and sacked Tunis at the very beginning of the 11th. OTOH, the raise of Genoa came later and was in full bloom just in time for the 1st crusade: Pisa enjoyed over a century of almost uncontested dominance in the Thyrrenian sea. However Genoa had less contentious feudal lords in its proximity, and better land routes toward the padan plain).
Couple of points:
  • Around 1119 Marseille was allied of Genoa in the wars against Pisa, together with other minor Provenzal cities; Montpelier and Savona were on Pisa's side in the same war)
  • the more I considered the failed raise of Marseille, the more I become convinced that the lack of natural defenses landward was the critical factor
 
Last edited:
Top