AHC: make WW2 more brutal

I think something in China will likely increase casualties by the millions. 15 million Chinese people died IOTL, which is a lot, but the Japanese controlled way more than 15 million Chinese people, and they can definitely be more brutal.
 
Simple, I think: instead of forbidding the use of chemical weapons, as he did historically, Hitler explicitly orders his military to use chemical weapons against the Allies as retribution for his experience in WW1.

That´s when the gloves really come off.

First have the japanese adopt the concentration/death camp model for china. Right there you get about 5-20 million chinese killed alongside the kniwn brutality that already occurred.

Seems that with normandy successful you have german opt for chemical weapons and the US speeds up nuke research and drops a few on germany and japan simultaneously as a declaration of outrage over violating what had previously been taboo and for the sneak attack. If the germans then have a pure extermination policy against the populations from lands from which they retreat, you could see millions of even dutch belgian and french slaughtered in a slash and burn campaign.

Finally have germany engage in a scorched earth retreat so that the land is unusable for a few years and war related deaths even after the war rise ...
 
Yeah. The war in the Soviet Union bogs down as in OTL, so the Germans escalate to gas. The Germans don't give a shit about the Soviets, so they figure all options are on the table and they use them. The British start gassing German cities. The Russians gas the German army. The Germans respond by gassing London. The British escalate to anthrax and the Americans escalate to nukes. :eek::eek::eek:

Wow! That is a REALLY messy war.

Goering and Himmler supported the offensive use of chemical and biological weapons.

Although he claimed that the work at this institute involved only 'defensive' measures against biological weapons, Heinrich Himmler, Herman Goering, and Erich Schumann, head of the Wehrmacht's Science Section, strongly supported the offensive use of chemical and biological weapons against Britain, the Soviet Union, and the United States.

According to Kliewe, plague, typhoid, cholera and anthrax were being developed as weapons, as well as a new "synthetic medium for the spread of these bacteria" which would allow them to remain virulent for eight-to-twelve weeks.

As part of the Nazi biological warfare program code-named 'Blitzableiter' (Lightning Rod), Blome's Institute was therefore "a camouflaged operation for the production of biological warfare agents", and its construction was overseen by Karl I. Gross, an S.S. officer and specialist in tropical diseases, who had conducted lethal experiments on 1,700 prisoners at the Mauthausen concentration camp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Blome

You want Germany to use them first you just need to get rid of Hitler at some point in early 1942. His adversion to the use of them was significant, but Goering and Himmler had no adversion to their use.

During the war, Germany stockpiled tabun, sarin, and soman but refrained from their use on the battlefield. In total, Germany produced about 78,000 tons of chemical weapons. By 1945 the nation produced about 12,000 tons of tabun and 1,000 pounds (450 kg) of sarin.

Delivery systems for the nerve agents included 105 mm and 150 mm artillery shells, a 250 kg bomb and a 150 mm rocket. Even when the Soviets neared Berlin, Adolf Hitler was against using tabun as the final trump card, a decision which stemmed from his own experience with chemical weapons in World War I.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

I suspect this was part of why at least during the war I imagine quite a few generals who wanted change in the leadership in Berlin were leery of anything less then a well organized and well planned coup against the entire Nazi leadership. A half assed one that just kills Hitler and leads to Goering or Himmler taking over could have led to an all out war with chemical and biological weapons depopulating large areas of Europe and ending Germany as a country.
 
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The French put up a better fight in 1940 ... the Germans have to fight for every inch of ground. As the campaign grinds on Hitler offers Franco vast areas of France in exchange for Spanish help and they attack the south of France also drawing them into the war on the Axis side ...
 
The French put up a better fight in 1940 ... the Germans have to fight for every inch of ground. As the campaign grinds on Hitler offers Franco vast areas of France in exchange for Spanish help and they attack the south of France also drawing them into the war on the Axis side ...

Franco I suspect would have joined the Axis had the BEF been far more damaged or Hitler went to Spain after the fall of France and offered him the kind of deal he couldn't refuse.

The BEF only getting a fraction of the number of men out they did OTL would present once of the biggest changes in the war. Lets say they get enough out it doesn't collapse Churchill's government, but lose enough that the British Empire has to pull heavily from its colonies to defend England. In that case I actually could see quite a few countries quickly toss in with the Axis like Spain, Yugoslavia, and even potentially Turkey heck potentally even Greece so they don't get carved up by Turkey, Yugoslavia and Italy. There would also be large uprisings many places in the British Empire. It would be quite ugly.
 
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Gas and Biological Warfare are never banned. The Warbreaks out in 1943, with a Spanish-German-Italian alliance, which overrun much of Europe, with the assistance of the Soviets. They even take Britain, except Ireland. The Germans then attack the Soviets. Eventually, simultaneous assaults from Ireland, to Italy, and into Iberia occur, with American support. Berlin finally falls in 1951, meanwhile Japan uses chemical weapons in its conquests, and to retake the islands, Superheavy tanks and Gas are used. The war only ends after Soviets, Americans, Free Chinese,and British forces conquer china and Japan.
 
Japanese biowarfare experiments escape containment in early 1943, mutate slightly, and find their way into USSR and Japanese Home Islands quickly. Slight mutation causes flu-like symptoms and a very infectious disease with a >60% mortality rate, but due to malnutrition and starvation disease spreads throughout continental Europe, USSR, China, Japan, SE Asia, and even into India with horrifying speed. Disease kills many, disruptions in supply/food chain kill more, and panic among the masses leads to desperation and looting that kills still others. War ends because organized governments in continental Europe and Asia collapse, essentially no one wants to go to work for fear of contracting the bug. War ends by default in mid-1944 with massive medical projects to treat/cure it in UK and USA.
 
How about about a scenario where Germany retains just enough of its scientists to make an atom bomb by mid-april. Hitler fires at the USSR then kills himself. The blast destroys the Soviet government,plunging the nation into civil war.
 
How about about a scenario where Germany retains just enough of its scientists to make an atom bomb by mid-april. Hitler fires at the USSR then kills himself. The blast destroys the Soviet government,plunging the nation into civil war.


I think Levrenti Beria if He survived would be the defacto leader of the USSR then. It might be a battle between the Red Army and the KGB forces who would shoot soldiers who retreated.
 
I meant EVERYONE who could hold the reigns of power. No Beiria,no Zhukov,No one !

That's essentially impossible. It'd be hard enough just getting enough minister-level officials in one place for targeting, since most will be doing some mission somewhere or other; but you have numerous generals who will be out in the front commanding; or even most of the military leadership, who will also be dispersed. Even knocking out the leadership of both the Army and the Navy, say, will be virtually impossible, since IIRC, they're headquartered in different cities.
 

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What if more countries decide to fight on the axis side? And also adding in more fronts to the war. Maybe Central Asian front or a South American one (Like in Axis of Andes)?
 
no atomic bomb on Japan. Total blockade of the islands drop chem/bio burn all crop fields, and sink all fishing vessels except no surrender starve the entire pop of Japan to death.​

That's actually a pretty good way to fit the OP. Delay the A-Bomb and make the Allies decide to try and starve Japan into submission. Millions of civilian deaths from famine and civil war.
 

katchen

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Franco I suspect would have joined the Axis had the BEF been far more damaged or Hitler went to Spain after the fall of France and offered him the kind of deal he couldn't refuse.

The BEF only getting a fraction of the number of men out they did OTL would present once of the biggest changes in the war. Lets say they get enough out it doesn't collapse Churchill's government, but lose enough that the British Empire has to pull heavily from its colonies to defend England. In that case I actually could see quite a few countries quickly toss in with the Axis like Spain, Yugoslavia, and even potentially Turkey heck potentally even Greece so they don't get carved up by Turkey, Yugoslavia and Italy. There would also be large uprisings many places in the British Empire. It would be quite ugly.
I don't know if WWII would necessarily be that much more brutal, but the changes at the end of it would definitely be a lot more revolutionary and irrevocable. There could be no more talk of any sort of return to status quo ante or Wilsonian international law if the British Expeditionary Force was cut off from the sea and surrendered. Not from Churchill and not from Roosevelt. The British Empire is from that point on kaput. Finished. Dead. As is the French and Dutch Empire. All arrangements are from that point on ad hoc.
Great Britain can be saved, but it will require every British soldier left currently under arms and all British equipment left that can be had. India gets it's independence--now! British troops leave. All African colonies become possessions of the Union of South Africa. Again, all Briish subjects under arms for whom space can be found on a ship go home to blighty. South Africa is called upon to provide as many troops as it can as a Member of the British Commonwealth. As are Canada, Australia and New Zealand and India.
The Malay States Independent. Sarawak and Sabah. Difficult since they are company held. Attempt made to sell to the United States as part of Commonwealth of Philippines. Fiji. Finally federated with Canada, as are Gilbert and Ellice Islands since Australia and New Zealand don[ want them. British West Indies. Part of the British Isles Newfoundland. Part of British Isles (fallback in event of German occupation). Guyana and Belize. Part of British Isles. St. Helena, Ascencion,Tristan da Cunha, Falkland Islands South Georgia, South Sandwich, South Orkney, Part of British Isles. Iceland and Greenland Annexed to British Isles.
British Mandate of Palestine. Independent nation of Israel--declared on both sides of Jordan--immediately at war with Egypt and Arab Legion of Transjordan. Seize much British equipment with help of French in Syria and win while British leave. without it.
Israel neutral--accepts over l million refugees from Lithuania, Latvia, Japan and Romania in 1940. Muslim Brotherhood takes over in Egypt--joins Axis--leader named Anwar al Sadat. Israel defends battle line on Suez Canal. :mad::eek:
 
Axis control of the Mediterranean could make it more difficult to bring British troops home from Asia. Also, South Africa might go Axis.

Bringing Spain in would have been tricky, though. Spain wanted control of all of Morocco, so Hitler would have had to compensate Vichy France by giving it part of what they took from Britain in a Mediterranean campaign. This would not have gone well with Italy, which would have been Germany's partner in the eastern Med.

As for making WW2 costlier:

Germany adopts the unmentionable marine mammal. Britain uses mustard gas on the invading Germans. Two years later, when the Tabun plant is operational, Germany remembers that Britain used poison gas first. If Britain can hold on for another couple of years, they drop anthrax on Germany while Germany had better luck adapting its V-weapons for chemical warfare, and launches V-2 rockets with Sarin.
 
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