AHC: Make Venice A Powerful City

The challenge: with a POD no earlier than 1500, make the city of Venice an important modern city, with an influence well outside its borders. This could be either as the capital of a surviving Most Serene Republic or as a major economic and cultural center in modern Italy.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Counter-intuitively - Fourth Crusade goes to the Holy Land rather than Constantinople. Furthermore it is to support the Roman Empire during an invasion

If this doesn't happen, then the Roman Empire keeps should stay intact, and get stronger - and improve relations with Venice and give them favourable trade rights.

If it falls into the Roman sphere, it would easily be a 3rd or 4th city of the Empire - (Constantinople, Alexandria (maybe), Venice), and be the focus of their efforts in Italy and the Adriatic. It could also become the heart of Roman - HRE trade, considering it is so close.

In addition, if it can be considered the natural trade centre for Lombardia then even better.
 
With a POD after 1500...so no Byzantine revival, then. That's interesting, because Venice has been an important city for much of its history, as a trade hub for the HRE, a producer of extremely high quality goods and main western partner of the Ottoman Empire. I read a very interesting TL where Venice did much better as in OTL by, among other things, remaining the main trading partner of the Ottomans, even being a shareholder of a much earlier Suez canal like project and expanding its influence in the Indian ocean.
Here it is, but unfortunately it is not being updated anymore: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=288436

With a more modern POD you could avoid italian unification and leave it one of the main ports of the Hapsburg Empire, but this would probably be more favourable to Trieste than to Venice.

Finally I think that it is not easy for Venice to remain an important port to this day: her lagoon position means was great in the middle ages, but looks more problematic today. Also I would argue that Venice is a very important city today, being an UNESCO world heritage site and one of the most visited turistic locations in europe.
 
hmm, doable but tough. WHat you need is for Venice to take over all of Northern and central italy up to florence. If it can achieve this and leave the south alone then I can see it developing high urbanization levels, gdp per capita and so on because in otl it was northern italy that industrialized heavily but was dragged down by the agricultural south which proved to be a huge strain. You see similiar issues with spain: Heavily urbanizaed basque and catalonia and netherlands that get dragged down by a less productive agricultural south. Essentially if Venice unites Northern Itay and plays of the french and the Hapsburgs and is able to check ottoman advance in the med perhaps with help from Spain? Then it can retain control over its trade routes and eventually become a modern and pwoerful and wealthy city.
 
hmm, doable but tough. What you need is for Venice to take over all of Northern and central Italy up to Florence.

I think this is probably the best way to go. A united northern Italy, even if it wasn't united by Venice, would probably use Venice as its primary port city and it would continue to be a major population center. If it unites early enough it might be able to take parts of today's Switzerland and hold onto the eastern side of the Adriatic.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Apologies for my daftness - I overlooked the 1500s bit *shameface*

One that is just legal? Have Venice win the Battle of Modon? If they can win that they may have a chance to win the war of 1499-1503 with the Ottomans. It'd boost their prestige, retain their eastern possessions, and give them the resources to push harder against Milan, potentially have the League of Cambrai be less disasterous (maybe even add Romagna to their winnings?) Though the league could be butterflied if there was propaganda decorating Venice as a defender of christendom after their war against the Turk (a harder swing).

Winning Modon, and the subsequent war could allow the Venetians to continue expanding its domains - and reach the critical point of controlling N.Italy. Without that they'd be hard pressed to be stable.

But a Venice with N.Italy and control over Adriatic and potentially Med. trade? Uh yes please. It might no longer be Venice The Trading City State - but Venetian Italia, or The Serene Adriatic Republic.
 
Apologies for my daftness - I overlooked the 1500s bit *shameface*

One that is just legal? Have Venice win the Battle of Modon? If they can win that they may have a chance to win the war of 1499-1503 with the Ottomans. It'd boost their prestige, retain their eastern possessions, and give them the resources to push harder against Milan, potentially have the League of Cambrai be less disasterous (maybe even add Romagna to their winnings?) Though the league could be butterflied if there was propaganda decorating Venice as a defender of christendom after their war against the Turk (a harder swing).

Winning Modon, and the subsequent war could allow the Venetians to continue expanding its domains - and reach the critical point of controlling N.Italy. Without that they'd be hard pressed to be stable.

But a Venice with N.Italy and control over Adriatic and potentially Med. trade? Uh yes please. It might no longer be Venice The Trading City State - but Venetian Italia, or The Serene Adriatic Republic.

Very close but no prize.
The war of 1499-1503 is quite critical, not really in itself but because of Antonio Grimani who in August 1499 was in command of the Venetian fleet interdicting the approach to Lepanto against the Ottoman fleet commanded by Kemal Reis. The Venetian fleet shadowed the Ottoman one from Modon to the island of the Sapienza, where they attacked. The battle was inconclusive on the tactical side, but was a strategic disaster: Kemal Reis was bringing the siege guns to the Ottoman army besieging Lepanto and the fortress surrendered before the end of the year, loosing a very important stronghold for the republic. The battle was lost by the Venetian commander, Antonio Grimani, who was very good at everything he did but was no admiral. Recalled in disgrace to Venice, tried and exiled he could not compete in the dogal election of 1501 (he was the obvious favorite). Grimani had to wait another 20 years to get the dogal hat (he managed it in 1521) and unfortunately these 20 years where very critical for Venice and almost ended up in a complete disaster. Even if the republic survived Venice after the wars of the League of Cambrai was no more the supremely confident city state she was at the end of the 15th century. If Grimani wins at Zonchio (or even if he does not get the command) he'll become the new doge and will herald an age of prosperity and triumph for Venice (his nickname in Venice was Dito de Oro, or Goldfinger, because he was said never to have lost money in a commercial transaction).

August 1499 is borderline illegal, I know, but I believe it would be a great POD
 
With a more modern POD you could avoid italian unification and leave it one of the main ports of the Hapsburg Empire, but this would probably be more favourable to Trieste than to Venice.
Which was the more important state in Europe of 1500: Savoy, or Venice?

Could you have had Italy united BY Serenissima Repubblica?
 
Which was the more important state in Europe of 1500: Savoy, or Venice?

Could you have had Italy united BY Serenissima Repubblica?

I would say Venice, Savoy wasn't particularly important at the time. But there wer other rather strong states: Milan, Papal Sate, Florence...

I don't think that a unification of italy is possible at that time, but if Venice stays strong, keeps the whole north east and stays an independent economic power until the xixth entury then it might also be the core of an unitary italian state. But I don't see it as very probable.
 
Another idea I had is for Venice to get ahead in the global finance industry somehow, whether by Venice improving or other suffering. By the time technology makes Venice unsuitable as a port, the Venetian Stock Exchange is one of the most important in Europe.
 
Another idea I had is for Venice to get ahead in the global finance industry somehow, whether by Venice improving or other suffering. By the time technology makes Venice unsuitable as a port, the Venetian Stock Exchange is one of the most important in Europe.
For this you would likely need Venice to not be Catholic so usury isn't frowned upon, since that is part of what gave the Dutch, Swiss, and British an edge in the banking industry in the 1600s.
 
For this you would likely need Venice to not be Catholic so usury isn't frowned upon, since that is part of what gave the Dutch, Swiss, and British an edge in the banking industry in the 1600s.

Savoy was Catholic. For what it's worth, the richest non-Swiss European cities today - Munich and Paris - are also Catholic, even if pretty much nobody goes to church in them anymore.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
For what it's worth, the richest non-Swiss European cities today - Munich and Paris - are also Catholic, even if pretty much nobody goes to church in them anymore.

So what does it really mean to call them Catholic anymore?
 
They're historically Catholic. It's similar to how Scandinavia is historically Lutheran, and has institutions that can be traced to Lutheranism, even while church attendance approaches zero.
 
For this you would likely need Venice to not be Catholic so usury isn't frowned upon, since that is part of what gave the Dutch, Swiss, and British an edge in the banking industry in the 1600s.

I am a bit surprised by this, given the role of Italian banks in the Renaissance and late middle ages.
 
How was the relative strength of Venice and Savoy in 1796?

What would happen in 19th century if Venice had emerged from Napoleonic wars intact?
 
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