AHC: Make this Brazil border its current border of the present day

[athgtq16129]

This below, which can be anachronistic, the real reason behind this AH scenario that I had in mind would be to make a smaller Brazil, in preference the smallest as possible, but without balkanizing it, or making it a tiny state, this diminished Brazil will still be enormous, but not as big as today.

Also interested to see the butterflies that this would cause to its neighbors and possibly abroad.

Or also this map (note the smaller Rio Grande do Sul/de São Pedro, but this one below includes Amapá whereas the one above doesn't, and marks the claimed territory of French Guyana)

 

[faddllz]

pedro i die early/assassinated, the country goes into a civil war ?

 

[EnzoLux]

A smaller Rio Grande do Sul is simple, prevent the Portuguese conquest of the Banda Oriental or have it fail. If Buenos Aires doesn't announce neutrality to the idea of the invasion, then it probably doesn't happen. If it does, I think Artigas can repel the invasion if he isn't abandoned and betrayed by the other provinces. This results in Argentina retaining Uruguay and Misiones Orientales.

The borders with Paraguay were settled after the Paraguayan War, so if it can be avoided (very easy) Brazil doesn't get those lands. This results in a bigger and more populated Paraguay.

Expanding into the Amazon is hard to prevent. The territory of Acre was gained in negotiations with Bolivia (Treaty of Ayacucho) during the rubber boom. I don't think Bolivia can hold to it, and the brief nation that formed there (Republic of Acre) was, well, brief; so the only option for it is to go to Brazil.
With that treaty, the borders with Bolivia and Mato Grosso are also stablished, benefitting Brazil. Again I don't think Bolivia could negotiate for something better.
If the Peru–Bolivian Confederation survives, then it might just be powerful enough to hold on to those areas, thus archiving your smaller Brazil. Even then, it's a big wank for Peru-Bolivia (it barely hold together for a few years)
Another scenario is Bolivia joining Argentina instead of becoming independent (them keeping Uruguay helps a lot). In that case Argentina does probably hold onto those territories, or at least gets a more equal treaty.

Unsurprisingly, wanking Brazil's biggest competitor is the easiest way to hurt Brazil.

 

[holycookie]

A smaller Rio Grande do Sul is simple, prevent the Portuguese conquest of the Banda Oriental or have it fail. If Buenos Aires doesn't announce neutrality to the idea of the invasion, then it probably doesn't happen. If it does, I think Artigas can repel the invasion if he isn't abandoned and betrayed by the other provinces. This results in Argentina retaining Uruguay and Misiones Orientales.

perhaps, the problem is that the period limitations. The uruguay being independent or being part of brazil was necessary to access mato grosso. It will not be as simple as Artigas hold the region. It's going to be a really bad war. With the country's navy (United Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil) dominating the sea and Brazil with a good functional army. With Argentina close to exploding after the Tucumã Congress (otl). If the nation unites against the UK of Portugal and Brazil. The war will be long and violent. And I don't know who would win.

the best way is for brazil to lose the war of independence and gradually die.
the uk conquers the spanish colony. Creating mega argentina?

 

[holycookie]

This below, which can be anachronistic, the real reason behind this AH scenario that I had in mind would be to make a smaller Brazil, in preference the smallest as possible, but without balkanizing it, or making it a tiny state, this diminished Brazil will still be enormous, but not as big as today.

for brazil to be smaller, argentina has to be much stronger than otl, with a population similar to brazil. A Brazil of this size is a Brazil that has failed. Which makes it prone to being balkanised.To be honest, otl's brazil is the small version.

Also interested to see the butterflies that this would cause to its neighbors and possibly abroad.

a turbocharged Argentina. With the possible conquest of chile.

 

[EnzoLux]

for brazil to be smaller, argentina has to be much stronger than otl, with a population similar to brazil. A Brazil of this size is a Brazil that has failed. Which makes it prone to being balkanised.To be honest, otl's brazil is the small version.

Brazil has more land per person than a comparatively big country, like the US. Unless you think that countries should be as sparsely populated as Canada or Australia, then no, Brazil is not small at all.
Also, Argentina cannot have the same population as Brazil unless you make massive changes in the region, maybe the world.

a turbocharged Argentina. With the possible conquest of chile.
View attachment 762833

Those borders are borderline ASB. I'm not saying they're impossible, but literally everything would have to go to Argentina's favor, and the Portuguese speaking regions would be hard to hold onto. I recommend A New World Wreathed in Freedom - An Argentine Revolution TL for a more grounded big Argentina (page 21 for the final borders)

 

[holycookie]

Brazil has more land per person than a comparatively big country, like the US. Unless you think that countries should be as sparsely populated as Canada or Australia, then no, Brazil is not small at all.
Also, Argentina cannot have the same population as Brazil unless you make massive changes in the region, maybe the world.

If we compare with other countries, yes, but if you see how Brazil develops, a country of this size is a flawed country. It would not have expanded for more than +-300 years against weaker neighbors. It would be a dead country. It is difficult to understand due to the size of the country. But the country could have been much, much bigger. From Bolivia asking to be part of Brazil, to expansions in the 17th-18th centuries that were narrowly impeded by the Jesuits. If the Bandeirantes won the Battle of Mbororé for example. The Portuguese expansion is extended to the region of Missions and probably to the south towards the region of the Prata. Just as if the usa had kept its 18th century size, it would have been a failed country (keeping the size of the country pre purchase of Louisiana)

 

[EnzoLux]

If we compare with other countries, yes, but if you see how Brazil develops, a country of this size is a flawed country. It would not have expanded for more than +-300 years against weaker neighbors. It would be a dead country. It is difficult to understand due to the size of the country. But the country could have been much, much bigger.

Maybe you think that Brazil could just have had its own version of Manifest Destiny, but no. By the time it got independence, Brazil already had more territory than it knew what to do with, expansionism for the sake of it wasn't something they wanted. Also, the US could expand because it was surrounded by natives and few Mexicans, but Brazil is surrounded by established nations with large cities and populations standing in the way, and they won't be easy to control. Even with all their might, Brazil couldn't hold onto tiny Uruguay long term. Also, geography stands in the way, Brazil cannot have a Pacific coastline because of the Andes and large distance to the population centers (and all the Spanish speaking people standing in the way). Also, because of population distribution, expanding westwards becomes increasingly harder to do and to maintain.

From Bolivia asking to be part of Brazil, to expansions in the 17th-18th centuries that were narrowly impeded by the Jesuits. If the Bandeirantes won the Battle of Mbororé for example. The Portuguese expansion is extended to the region of Missions and probably to the south towards the region of the Prata.

I didn't know about Bolivia asking to be part of Brazil, do you have a source or something?
Again, I think a more realistic bigger Brazil would be similar to this. Not much bigger than OTL. Going beyond that you just get either more jungle, mountains, or more people who don't want to be Brazilian.

 

[holycookie]

Maybe you think that Brazil could just have had its own version of Manifest Destiny, but no. By the time it got independence, Brazil already had more territory than it knew what to do with, expansionism for the sake of it wasn't something they wanted. Also, the US could expand because it was surrounded by natives and few Mexicans, but Brazil is surrounded by established nations with large cities and populations standing in the way, and they won't be easy to control. Even with all their might, Brazil couldn't hold onto tiny Uruguay long term.
Also, geography stands in the way, Brazil cannot have a Pacific coastline because of the Andes and large distance to the population centers (and all the Spanish speaking people standing in the way). Also, because of population distribution, expanding westwards becomes increasingly harder to do and to maintain.

And you that a Brazil of that size would not be balkanized. You want a Brazil the size of the beginning of the 18th century, for that to happen the country has to be frozen in time. Other than that, it's impossible. A loss in the war of independence and implosion afterwards is the most likely
brazil lost uruguay due to the fact that it was fighting a gigantic rebellion in the north, having all marine dominance in the war against argentina/uruguay. If the Emperor (Peter I) had not had the brilliant idea of rejecting the Constitution due to absolutist fantasies, Uruguay would not have won its independence. So no, uruaguay did not liberate itself, being more the fault of the brazilian government's incompetence (aka the emperor, being expelled a few years later from brazil) than uruguay competence;

I didn't know about Bolivia asking to be part of Brazil, do you have a source or something?

Fearing bloodshed that the libertarian troops could cause the local population, in June 1822 the three governors of Upper Peru departments gathered in Cuiabá (Captaincy of Mato Grosso, Brazil) and asked the governor to take sides with the Prince Regent (future Emperor Pedro I) to occupy the territory for the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarves. It was better (thought the governors) to be occupied by a monarchical State than to entertain the idea of rule by a fragile and uncertain republic.
Immediately, in July of that year, the governor of Mato Grosso sent to Upper Peru the troops stationed in the captaincy and closed the borders to stop the advance of the libertarian troops. He sent to the Prince the proposal of the local authorities and the dispatch order of the troops.
Source : wiki
with the emperor rejecting it due to the fact that he is fighting the war of independence and some other factors that the wiki didn't mention.

 

[athgtq16129]

Fearing bloodshed that the libertarian troops could cause the local population, in June 1822 the three governors of Upper Peru departments gathered in Cuiabá (Captaincy of Mato Grosso, Brazil) and asked the governor to take sides with the Prince Regent (future Emperor Pedro I) to occupy the territory for the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarves. It was better (thought the governors) to be occupied by a monarchical State than to entertain the idea of rule by a fragile and uncertain republic.
Immediately, in July of that year, the governor of Mato Grosso sent to Upper Peru the troops stationed in the captaincy and closed the borders to stop the advance of the libertarian troops. He sent to the Prince the proposal of the local authorities and the dispatch order of the troops.
Source : wiki
with the emperor rejecting it due to the fact that he is fighting the war of independence and some other factors that the wiki didn't mention.

This is awesome! never heard of that, could you please post this (just copy + paste) it on the "Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen" Map Thread? or I could simply copy your comment of course giving you credits and the link to this original comment.

 

[holycookie]

This is awesome! never heard of that, could you please post this (just copy + paste) it on the "Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen" Map Thread? or I could simply copy your comment of course giving you credits and the link to this original comment.

sure, you can copy and modify if you want.
the Spanish and Portuguese versions are more complete than the English versions of the subject.
In Portuguese:
In the early 19th century, independence movements began to emerge across Hispanic America, spreading war and chaos. Faced with this feeling of insecurity and fearing chaos, in June 1822, the three governors of the Spanish departments of Upper Peru (which had already been threatened by the troops of General Antonio José de Sucre and Simón Bolívar), met in Cuiabá (capital of Captaincy of Mato Grosso, Brazil) and asked the governor to intercede with Prince Regent Dom Pedro (soon to be crowned Dom Pedro I, Emperor of Brazil), in order for the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarves to annex these territories, seeking to spare their population from massacre and chaos.[19]

Immediately, the governor of Mato Grosso sent troops that were under his captaincy to Alto Peru, blocking the advance of Bolívar and Sucre, and sent a letter to Dom Pedro, informing him of the dispatch of troops and the request of the authorities of Alto Peru. (later to become Bolivia). Letter that was only received by Dom Pedro I in November 1822, when Brazil was already an independent nation. In addition, Bolívar and Sucre were faster and sent representatives to the City of Rio de Janeiro, which came before the governor's letter. Thus, upon receiving the letter, the Prince Regent had already decided not to annex Upper Peru, rejecting the request of the region's governors and ordering the troops to be withdrawn from there. With that, Dom Pedro I left the region of Alto Peru (now Bolivia) on its own, which culminated in the invasion of Bolivar and Sucre troops and Bolivian independence from Spain. Clearly, at that moment, Dom Pedro I was more concerned with defeating the resistance of Portuguese liberal troops on Brazilian soil, ensuring the unity of the newly independent nation. However, without this decision being taken, the Bolivian territory could have been integrated into Brazil.

source : https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolívia

 

[athgtq16129]

sure, you can copy and modify if you want.
the Spanish and Portuguese versions are more complete than the English versions of the subject.
In Portuguese:
In the early 19th century, independence movements began to emerge across Hispanic America, spreading war and chaos. Faced with this feeling of insecurity and fearing chaos, in June 1822, the three governors of the Spanish departments of Upper Peru (which had already been threatened by the troops of General Antonio José de Sucre and Simón Bolívar), met in Cuiabá (capital of Captaincy of Mato Grosso, Brazil) and asked the governor to intercede with Prince Regent Dom Pedro (soon to be crowned Dom Pedro I, Emperor of Brazil), in order for the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarves to annex these territories, seeking to spare their population from massacre and chaos.[19]

Immediately, the governor of Mato Grosso sent troops that were under his captaincy to Alto Peru, blocking the advance of Bolívar and Sucre, and sent a letter to Dom Pedro, informing him of the dispatch of troops and the request of the authorities of Alto Peru. (later to become Bolivia). Letter that was only received by Dom Pedro I in November 1822, when Brazil was already an independent nation. In addition, Bolívar and Sucre were faster and sent representatives to the City of Rio de Janeiro, which came before the governor's letter. Thus, upon receiving the letter, the Prince Regent had already decided not to annex Upper Peru, rejecting the request of the region's governors and ordering the troops to be withdrawn from there. With that, Dom Pedro I left the region of Alto Peru (now Bolivia) on its own, which culminated in the invasion of Bolivar and Sucre troops and Bolivian independence from Spain. Clearly, at that moment, Dom Pedro I was more concerned with defeating the resistance of Portuguese liberal troops on Brazilian soil, ensuring the unity of the newly independent nation. However, without this decision being taken, the Bolivian territory could have been integrated into Brazil.

source : https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolívia

Thanks, I'm Brazilian and I speak both Portuguese and Spanish, so it's no problem, I'll also make a map of this proposal soon, I'll summon you when it's done.

 

[Taunay]

expansions in the 17th-18th centuries that were narrowly impeded by the Jesuits

So, no Jesuits = Wank Brazil?

 

[Taunay]

17th-18th centuries that were narrowly impeded by the Jesuits

Wait, besides the Mbororé, what other examples were there of these expansion attempts?

 

[holycookie]

Wait, besides the Mbororé, what other examples were there of these expansion attempts

The guarani wars?
they are an example of attempted expansion after the Battle of M'Bororé.

 

[holycookie]

So, no Jesuits = Wank Brazil?

not a wank but a lot bigger than otl

 

[Taunay]

The guarani wars?
they are an example of attempted expansion after the Battle of M'Bororé.

But didn't Portugal/Brazil defeat the Guaranis

 

[holycookie]

But didn't Portugal/Brazil defeat the Guaranis

yep they did. That's why Brazil has more territories in the south. is an example of expansion after this battle.

 

[Casting Crown]

With states like that I think it breaks apart.

Uruguay breaks away, that giant Sao Paulo definitely leaves, the Rio one becomes a city state type small country.

And the northern ones hold together as a kind of functional state but one that's bad for the rainforest.