AHC: Make the Third Reich Survive

Again, the Germans didn't run into significant resistance in this sector for some time after they destroyed Kuznetsov's Front. What saved Leningrad in this sense was *not* that Popov and company were able to put up a large-scale, major, serious resistance south of the city where they had no major fortifications and knew this, it was that the Nazis started running into logistics issues the closer they got to the city, issues that neither side found real solutions for.

General von Manstein was nearly encircled in the Stoltsy attack that almost cut his career short before it fairly got started, and his army only made it out of that because someone else bailed him out of it. The Soviets likewise did not have sufficient power to secure the encirclement against that. What he's describing is the kind of hell for leather "Panzers uber alles" approach that leads to more Stoltsys. Modern war does not rely on armor alone, infantry alone, artillery alone, or air power alone, it relies on them all in tandem. And in a densely tangled terrain more troops = bigger problem, not better solution.

Leningrad was not takeable not because of Soviet skill, but because the terrain forced both the Germans and Soviets to rely on small-unit actions. This favored the Germans, but endless small unit fights are never going to shatter Soviet strength in an attrition process where eventually the Germans run out of Germans but the Soviets still have Soviets. There was also no easy solution for the USSR to the particular problems of Leningrad when we factor in the sheer 3:1 disparity Army Group North had over Kuznetsov and how the USSR's defense plan did not expect to fight south of the city against Germans, only north of it against Finns. The Germans *had* an overwhelming numerical advantage, more overwhelming numbers is not the answer.


they didn't run into significant resistance because Zhukov ordered the troops to withdraw closer to the city where the terrain favored the defense which drew the germans to the limit of their supply zone whilst still having a seirous battle to fight

my proposed scenario pre-empts that by encircling the troops BEFORE Zhukov can order them to be withdrawn, so the germans are attacking only 250 miles from their jump off point (within their supply zone abilities) not 450 (breaking point) and not only that they are attacking troops who have been rushed into a position of flat ground with limited heavy weapons

losing those 350k men in the context of everything else going on at the front likely prevents the russians from being able to reform a defense either just south of the city or even the city itself before the panzers reach it off the march which is what happened to orel during typhoon
 
they didn't run into significant resistance because Zhukov ordered the troops to withdraw closer to the city where the terrain favored the defense which drew the germans to the limit of their supply zone whilst still having a seirous battle to fight

my proposed scenario pre-empts that by encircling the troops BEFORE Zhukov can order them to be withdrawn, so the germans are attacking only 250 miles from their jump off point (within their supply zone abilities) not 450 (breaking point) and not only that they are attacking troops who have been rushed into a position of flat ground with limited heavy weapons

losing those 350k men in the context of everything else going on at the front likely prevents the russians from being able to reform a defense either just south of the city or even the city itself before the panzers reach it off the march which is what happened to orel during typhoon

....

I'm not talking about Zhukov here, I'm talking about the phase when Popov was attempting to set up defensive lines south of the city when Leeb defeated Kuznetsov. That phase happened earlier, including the attacks at Soltsy launched by Vatutin. You're thinking of the later fighting including Tikhvin and First Siniavo, I'm referring to the earlier summer-fall fighting.

And if the Germans pull a European Rape of Nanking the only place German will be spoken will be Hell.
 
....

I'm not talking about Zhukov here, I'm talking about the phase when Popov was attempting to set up defensive lines south of the city when Leeb defeated Kuznetsov. That phase happened earlier, including the attacks at Soltsy launched by Vatutin. You're thinking of the later fighting including Tikhvin and First Siniavo, I'm referring to the earlier summer-fall fighting.

And if the Germans pull a European Rape of Nanking the only place German will be spoken will be Hell.

I'm talking about June 27th... the defensive lines south of the city were all set up (manned) later after Manstein lost the opportunity to encircle the remaining core of the district on the Dvina

The whole razing of Leningrad thing if it even happens at all won't happen till sometime later as AGN's forces will be needed at the front, and the whole of AGN's operational area was too big for Einsatzgruppen A to cleanse in any short period of time... the germans were not effecient at rear area mass murder; from June 41 through Stalingrad the 4 einsatzgruppen together killed 1.5ish million people or less than 100k per month; Leningrad had over 3 million people in the surrounding areas and the city itself and ensatzgruppen A was only 1/4 the total ss murder brigade strength
 
I'm talking about June 27th... the defensive lines south of the city were all set up (manned) later after Manstein lost the opportunity to encircle the remaining core of the district on the Dvina

The whole razing of Leningrad thing if it even happens at all won't happen till sometime later as AGN's forces will be needed at the front, and the whole of AGN's operational area was too big for Einsatzgruppen A to cleanse in any short period of time... the germans were not effecient at rear area mass murder; from June 41 through Stalingrad the 4 einsatzgruppen together killed 1.5ish million people or less than 100k per month; Leningrad had over 3 million people in the surrounding areas and the city itself and ensatzgruppen A was only 1/4 the total ss murder brigade strength

No, it will happen right then and there as Hitler didn't believe in waiting for his mass murdering. There's no "if" there's "how long" and "how many dead Russians". The Nazis publically executed 30,000 Jews in Babi Yar in 1941, they starved 3 million POWs to death. Razing a city by artillery and air power and ensuring all the civilians die? Same difference, to them. But when this hits the Allies like a ton of bricks, the only place German will be heard in the post-WWII world IATLs like this is Hell. It would not be rear area mass murder, rather it would be the direct front area mass murder, given the Barbarossa plans specified the wholesale destruction of Leningrad so the Germans had no "useless mouths" to feed.
 
No, it will happen right then and there as Hitler didn't believe in waiting for his mass murdering. There's no "if" there's "how long" and "how many dead Russians". The Nazis publically executed 30,000 Jews in Babi Yar in 1941, they starved 3 million POWs to death. Razing a city by artillery and air power and ensuring all the civilians die? Same difference, to them. But when this hits the Allies like a ton of bricks, the only place German will be heard in the post-WWII world IATLs like this is Hell. It would not be rear area mass murder, rather it would be the direct front area mass murder, given the Barbarossa plans specified the wholesale destruction of Leningrad so the Germans had no "useless mouths" to feed.

My use of "if" is circumstantial (ie combat situation prevents Germany from getting the opportunity to go through with it)... not questionable German blood lust

That mass execution created ammo shortages, and a horrendous logistical nightmare in getting rid of the bodies and such events were largely not repeated

Like I said, the einsatzgruppen executions were not effecient
 
My use of "if" is circumstantial (ie combat situation prevents Germany from getting the opportunity to go through with it)... not questionable German blood lust

That mass execution created ammo shortages, and a horrendous logistical nightmare in getting rid of the bodies and such events were largely not repeated

Like I said, the einsatzgruppen executions were not effecient

The Combat situation to the Germans *is* the massacre. Nazi ideology made no difference between machine-gunning women and babies in the back and clashes of armies against armies and navies against navies. The Nazis made the direct destruction of Leningrad a war aim, and if they thought this would break Soviet resistance, they were deluding themselves. The practical result again would be that German is spoken only in Hell when that WWII is over.
 
1. Charles Lindbergh runs for president on an isolationist policy in 1940. No baby kidnapping so he is more involved in politics
2. Communist uprising in China occurs earlier. Japan puts it down and is viewed in more friendly light as an ally against communism.
3. Japan doesnt attack Pearl Harbor- US took a more hands off policy
4. US stays out of the war longer
5. Saner Germany acting slower and in smaller steps which are viewed as anti-communist and not total crazed dominantion attempt.
 
The practical result again would be that German is spoken only in Hell when that WWII is over.

Um...you keep saying that.

You mean all speakers of German would be...removed?

Well, there's logistical problems with...removing that many people.

Solvable ones, though. In fact, solved during that time period.

IE, Auschwitz would have to be reopened.

Say, what about German-speaking Jews? Whoa, there's some irony.
 
Um...you keep saying that.

You mean all speakers of German would be...removed?

Well, there's logistical problems with...removing that many people.

Solvable ones, though. In fact, solved during that time period.

IE, Auschwitz would have to be reopened.

Say, what about German-speaking Jews? Whoa, there's some irony.

No, I mean something like Operation Vegetarian and ultimately nuclear fire. Given the Wehrmacht *will* go along with this as this was an objective for this, there will be literally nothing left of any attempt by them to say "Hey, we killed Hitler. Wanna let us surrender" that would ever be creditable. It's a Rape of Nanking ala Europe, ensuring that Germany can only lose the war from there. If the Soviets don't rape their way through Germany, this time in all probability very calculatedly deliberately, the Western Allies will saturate it with anthrax and atomic strikes.
 
No, I mean something like Operation Vegetarian and ultimately nuclear fire. Given the Wehrmacht *will* go along with this as this was an objective for this, there will be literally nothing left of any attempt by them to say "Hey, we killed Hitler. Wanna let us surrender" that would ever be creditable. It's a Rape of Nanking ala Europe, ensuring that Germany can only lose the war from there. If the Soviets don't rape their way through Germany, this time in all probability very calculatedly deliberately, the Western Allies will saturate it with anthrax and atomic strikes.

Considering that that wasn't done to Japan after they surrendered--and they really did Rape Nanking like that, and by the way weren't white (it was the 40s, so yes, that would have made it easier for the Allies and the USSR)--what makes you so sure that Germany would be treated that much worse?

(PS Please tell me this isn't bloodlust on your part? With your emphasis on how all Nazis are all the same, you're beginning to worry me a bit. I mean, I speak a teensy bit of German, having taken a couple years of it in high school, and I really don't want to think I deserve to die and go to Hell for it. :) )
 
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