AHC: Make The Stauffenberg Bomb Plot Against Hitler Succeed WITHOUT Killing Hitler

I've tossed in this little qualifier since most people, if this question is posed, simply reply "Kill Hitler!" But the situation was actually more complicated than that. Even after that bomb had(unfortunately)not killed Hitler, Stauffenberg & company still had many advantages. Hitler was not @ Berlin, but far off in East Prussia with all of the members of his government(with the crucial exception of Goebbels). Meanwhile, the very commander of the key Berlin garrison was one of the conspirators. Thus it should have been an easy matter for Stauffenberg to seize the capital & over-
throw Hitler. The plot- even despite having failed to kill Hitler- thus not only could have succeeded-
it SHOULD have. But it failed. So again- what would you, my fellow posters, cause to happen diff-
erently so Hitler, despite being spared, is toppled by Stauffenberg & company?
 
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One of the sticky points oft repeated in this context is the oath to Hitler - as the person. The previous oath was towards the country, which could then have been justification for acting against Hitler.

So, if Hitler is not dead, will the majority of German officers then feel loyalty towards Hitler or the country. 1944 is a bit late in the day to still hope for any miracle so everybody should know that they are on a losing trajectory.

… and then we have SS as the 'dark horse' in this.

I think there was a theory of taking Hitler into custody and shoot the rest, starting with Goering, Himmler, Goebbels and so on.

Ivan
 
Honestly, how serious is this vow business? Because given the vast number of horrible, beastly crimes the Wehrmacht participated in during the war, it always seemed to me like an excuse. They happily murdered, raped, looted, and starved civilians all the way across Eastern Europe, but suddenly become William Marshall when it comes to saying "Enough"? Biting back objections?

It seems more likely that they were largely true believers who needed a reason to avoid the gallows when they lost the war.
 
One of the sticky points oft repeated in this context is the oath to Hitler - as the person. The previous oath was towards the country, which could then have been justification for acting against Hitler.


It is more complex than this, it always is

http://weaponsman.com/?p=29487

Honestly, how serious is this vow business? .

I agree, at the end of WW1, I remember reading that when questioned by the authorities a German general stated that an Oath ultimately is just words.
 
If the coup happened fast(it went really slow OTL) and Himmler, Goebbels and Göring are arrested and the SS neutralized, they have a shot at it. Then, when it is revealed that Hitler lives they have to kill him quickly or loose support faster than rainfall during a monsoon. it can happen that its revealed muhc alter that Hiter is alive when the bomb did a lot more damage, killedm ore people and left Hitler seriously injured.

Especially in the West, France, it went well and they had control pretty quickly and were in fact ready to contact the allies. It might collapse in the East though when Hitler is found to be alive, disorganization in the leadership will result in faster Soviet advance i'd reckon. Also, if the Allis find out Hitler is alive after considdering peace they might decide against it just as quickly.

Question is like to ask though, if it eventually does collapse but much later, do they shoot their arrestees? Will Himmler, Goebbels etc. bite the bullet?
 
Question is like to ask though, if it eventually does collapse but much later, do they shoot their arrestees? Will Himmler, Goebbels etc. bite the bullet?

I believe the plotters' best option is to kill everyone on the spot, à la night of the long knives.
A trial, however informal, might give the nazis time to reorganise and someone to rally around.
 
I've tossed in this little qualifier since most people, if this question is posed, simply reply "Kill Hitler!" But the situation was actually more complicated than that. Even after that bomb had(unfortunately)not killed Hitler, Stauffenberg & company still had many advantages. Hitler was not @ Berlin, but far off in East Prussia with all of the members of his government(with the crucial exception of Goebbels). Meanwhile, the very commander of the key Berlin garrison was one of the conspirators. Thus it should have been an easy matter for Stauffenberg to seize the capital & over-
throw Hitler. The plot- even despite having failed to kill Hitler- thus not only could have succeeded-
it SHOULD have. But it failed. So again- what would you, my fellow posters, cause to happen diff-
erently so Hitler, despite being spared, is toppled by Stauffenberg & company?

I don't think it can work unless Hitler is killed or rendered completely incompetent. If he lives the coup fails as the soldiers loyal to the regime will outnumber the plotters especially once the reprisals start. If you are going to succeed with your coup you need to behead the snake.

That means taking out not only Hitler but all of his nasty chums. You then need someone ostensibly loyal to the regime to act as your front man calling for calm before installing his fellow plotters in senior positions to maintain control in their areas after, of course, neutralizing all of the old guards nasty retainers within those organisations.

All it takes is one of those chums to escape or for one of them to blow the whistle and you have had it.
 
Hitler could be incapacitated by the explosion and rendered comatose, laid up somewhere in East Prussia while the rest of the coup unfolds.

Unfortunately the 20 July plotters had unrealistic goals to the point of delusion. They actually thought they could get the Allies to agree to Germany's 1914 borders with some even thinking that keeping Poland was on the table.

So what happens when they ask for an armistice in the West and get told that it's unconditional surrender of nothing? They're going to look like fools to the military and a counter-coup might occur.
 
That is where it gets complicated.

Letting Hitler live will make it hopeless I think.

Here is the catch: If the upper echelons are killed off (Goering, Himmler, etc), there will be nobody known to the German public to rally around. Who is known to the German population at large? only the Nazi heads. If the conspirators should trot out Stauffenberg, well, who is he (in the greater picture). Von Papen? Blom?

The whole thing might collapse even before it really starts.

… then when we look at what the conspirators had as goals? In essence, Whatever Hitler had managed to grab, we keep. And a bit more as well. and we will still have a rather big army and so on.

But that leaves us all with the good question: How would YOU have carried it out (assuming that the bomb goes off and kills a lot of people, but not Hitler?

Ivan
 

Ramontxo

Donor
And of course a civil war at this moment would make for a second stab in the back legend. With all of its horrors WWII at least brought an end to German militarism.
 
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