AHC: Make the Irish loyal to the United Kingdom

Morty Vicar

Banned
Make the United Kingdom loyal to the Irish

You could in a way, if you consider the Union of Crowns in OTL as England coming under the Scottish Crown. Maybe do some finagling and get an Irish succession for the UK instead of a Stewart dynasty.
 
Having Catholic emancipation tied directly into the Act of Union as Peel initially planned would go a long way towards changing the situation (albeit at the price of annoying the Protestant Ascendancy). The Catholic middle and upper classes were a crucial Unionist pressure group, ironically, during the campaign to get the Act of Union passed through the Irish parliament. Emancipation at this point although unlikely in my opinion to make the Irish "loyal", might at least change the dynamic of sectarianism being intrinsically linked to nationalism and thus weaken the nationalists as the Catholic church was the only effective way of mobilising the proletariat.
 
Very interesting for me to read this. My dad's family is Irish except they are not. They came from Scotland. It seems my ancestor was some minor person there who killed some one more important in a duel. Off to Ireland he was sent.

When my family came to the US they thought of themselves as Irish. My GreatGrandparents and my grandmother said they were Scots (I guess to avoid prejudice) where as my Father's generation and ours identify as Irish.

Cool to read this, I did not realize the occupation by fellow Celts who spoke the same tounge.
 
Very interesting for me to read this. My dad's family is Irish except they are not. They came from Scotland. It seems my ancestor was some minor person there who killed some one more important in a duel. Off to Ireland he was sent.

When my family came to the US they thought of themselves as Irish. My GreatGrandparents and my grandmother said they were Scots (I guess to avoid prejudice) where as my Father's generation and ours identify as Irish.

Cool to read this, I did not realize the occupation by fellow Celts who spoke the same tounge.

That bit tends to get glossed over in history/ popular culture ... just try explaining it to your Boston Irish relatives.

Or to the Scots Irish demographic that they are descended from the oppressive invaders!!!

Although my grandfather was from County Kerry and I don't identify as Irish ... but according to the Irish Government's broad definition of the concept I qualify for a Passport?
 
Bit of a curve ball here. Was there any suitable Irish suitor or bride for an English monarch? Would an anglo-irish monarchy be enough?
 

frlmerrin

Banned
The challenge is to make the OTL Irish Nationalists/ Republicans loyal to Britain. You can have them convert to Protestantism, or have the British Monarchy remain Catholic, whatever it takes to make the Irish as we know them loyal to Britain. If you still have the settlers in the tl they can be either loyalist or rebels, whichever you prefer, same for Scotland and Wales.

1) You can't have Republicans being loyal to a Monarchy ever, the concepts are completely juxtaposed. This is Common Sense. The idea is absurd. If you want the Irish Republicans to be loyal to Britain then you have to overthrow the British Monarchy and replace it with a Republic or a Commonwealth. Plenty of PODs to choose from to achieve this, none are particularly likely.
2) On the question of the loyalty of Irish Nationalists to Britain. I suggest a walk through the National War Memorial Gardens by the side of the river in Dublin. It is very beautiful especially the rose gardens, it was designed by Lutyens and commemorates the nearly 50,000 Irishmen that died fighting for the British Empire in WWI out of at least 300,000 Irish born that served in the allied armies. Many of these men were Nationalists, many were Protestant most were Catholic. These men seem pretty loyal to the Empire to me, dutifully heeding Britannia's call by going out to be blown to bits on the Somme only just after the British blew those proclaiming the Irish Republic to bits along with half of the northside of Dublin.
 
That bit tends to get glossed over in history/ popular culture ... just try explaining it to your Boston Irish relatives.

Or to the Scots Irish demographic that they are descended from the oppressive invaders!!!

Although my grandfather was from County Kerry and I don't identify as Irish ... but according to the Irish Government's broad definition of the concept I qualify for a Passport?

There was a lot of internal migration going both ways yes. I discovered a whiles back that various ancestors moved between Ireland and Scotland in the 19th century to work on farms or estates and of course England and Scotland for the same
 
This could tie in with the other thread abt Lionel D of Clarence.

He marries Elizabeth de Burgh, daughter of William de Burgh, Earl of Ulster. Had their daughter Philippa been either born male or had a surviving twin brother, then after Richard II there would probably have been a half-Irish King of England.
 

Morty Vicar

Banned
1) You can't have Republicans being loyal to a Monarchy ever, the concepts are completely juxtaposed. This is Common Sense. The idea is absurd.

The key word there was OTL, those people in OTL who are Republicans, in this ATL are loyalist or Unionist however you wish to describe them. They could be Monarchist, or you could dissolve the Monarchy, either way they are loyal to the United Kingdom.

If you want the Irish Republicans to be loyal to Britain then you have to overthrow the British Monarchy and replace it with a Republic or a Commonwealth. Plenty of PODs to choose from to achieve this, none are particularly likely.

The Irish Nationalists weren't inherently Republican up until recently, the Commonwealth was deeply unpopular in Ireland, and the Irish fought for the Stewart lineage at the Boyne.

2) On the question of the loyalty of Irish Nationalists to Britain. I suggest a walk through the National War Memorial Gardens by the side of the river in Dublin. It is very beautiful especially the rose gardens, it was designed by Lutyens and commemorates the nearly 50,000 Irishmen that died fighting for the British Empire in WWI out of at least 300,000 Irish born that served in the allied armies. Many of these men were Nationalists, many were Protestant most were Catholic. These men seem pretty loyal to the Empire to me, dutifully heeding Britannia's call by going out to be blown to bits on the Somme only just after the British blew those proclaiming the Irish Republic to bits along with half of the northside of Dublin.

Yup, and again in WW2 many Irish men volunteered to fight.
 
I know things were/are a lot more complicated than just "Protestant = Unionist, "Catholic = Nationalist", but the religious difference certainly did not aid matters.

The fact that most Irishmen were loyal to the Catholic Church, at a time when the Pope called on Catholics to revolt against Elizabeth I (in his bull Regnans in Excelsis) made the religious difference highly problematic. It made the Irish pawns in the English/Spanish struggle and ultimately convinced Elizabeth and her successors that the way to pacify Ireland was to flood it with English/Scottish settlers.

I think the best way to make Ireland loyal to the Crown is to have Protestantism make inroads by this time. As noted above, an earlier translation of the Bible into Irish might have helped. If Edward VI had outlived his sister Mary, leading to a seamless religious transition to Elizabeth, that may have helped as well; in OTL, the re-established Church of England under Elizabeth had a serious shortage of trained clergymen in its early years. If we have Edward live to 1558 or sometime later, the C of E can have a more established clergy by the time Elizabeth takes over and may be able to launch more effective missionary efforts in Ireland.
 
I agree .Maybe with the act of union in 1707 Ireland along with Wales is made a kingdom of the UK with the second in line of succession being named Prince of Eire or something to that effect .
The effects of this could be rather huge as the UK may be able to hold onto their title of World Superpower longer if Ireland were to industrialize along with the rest of the UK .IDK about the natural resources the island has but if you put factories there in the early 1800 or late 1700`s then the nation would be that much stronger .
That means that TTL UK could not be so broken by the world wars and might have a chance at holding onto some of their colonies like Newfoundland or parts of Africa and some or all of Australia since many of its citizens descend from fine Irish stock .

It does seem Ireland was mostly used as an agricultural territory, whose main exportations were beef and corn.

Having Catholic emancipation tied directly into the Act of Union as Peel initially planned would go a long way towards changing the situation (albeit at the price of annoying the Protestant Ascendancy). The Catholic middle and upper classes were a crucial Unionist pressure group, ironically, during the campaign to get the Act of Union passed through the Irish parliament. Emancipation at this point although unlikely in my opinion to make the Irish "loyal", might at least change the dynamic of sectarianism being intrinsically linked to nationalism and thus weaken the nationalists as the Catholic church was the only effective way of mobilising the proletariat.

It would involve making George III not arguing Catholic emancipation would break his Coronation Oath to protect the established Church of England.
 
Recent history, it's all about the Potato Famine. There really is this quirk of human nature in which a massacre can be more easily forgiven than a deliberate refusal to help, which is viewed and felt as much more cold-blooded.

And the perception is even not completely correct in that the British did make efforts to help, admittedly too little too late, but some efforts were made.
 
During the Acts of Union 1707 which joined England and Scotland together to create Great Britain the Parliament or Ireland passed a congratulatory address to Queen Anne which stated "May God put it in your royal heart to add greater strength and lustre to your crown, by a still more comprehensive Union". Now in our timeline this invitation wasn't followed up on but if the Monarch or someone important enough were to decide that it was important enough you could see the Acts of Union 1710 creating the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland ninety years early. It certainly wouldn't be a panacea but by making Ireland a part of the country it would potentially head off the more extreme Penal Laws and stop the Protestant Ascendancy from doing a lot of the damage they did.

Failing that if the union of Great Britain and Ireland has to wait until the Acts of Union 1800 then Pitt being able to pass his Catholic Emancipation bill as part of the quid pro quo is another possibility. A timely bout of madness sees George III incapacitated with the bill being passed and Royal Assent granted by the future George IV, IIRC George IV was originally supportive of Catholic Emancipation until his father came out against it and he ascended to the throne later in life, here George III doesn't get a chance to speak out against it so his son grants the bill Royal Assent.

The potato famine is a problem due to a combination of factors limiting the government's actions. Part of it was that it was just so expensive, even benevolent landlords like Palmerston were forced to send almost two thousand tenants off to America in 1847 as the famine relief was costing four to five times what he made in rent from his lands. So how about the government and/or rich charitable types offering folks a one way tickets on ships to the US? In our timeline there was already large emigration to Canada, Newfoundland, and the US by those that could afford it themselves. Here the government could offer a berth and a small amount of cash in hand for when they arrived to any volunteers and still save themselves money. There would still be ill-feeling over the whole affair but with fewer deaths it might not be quite so bad for Anglo-Irish relations.

Improvements such as the Congested Districts Board for Ireland, alongside its sister the Congested Districts Board (Scotland), and the agricultural co-operatives as supported by Sir Horace Curzon Plunkett would be other good moves. If thanks to other changes relations haven't become as bad as our timeline then showing people that they benefit financially from being a part of the UK would be the other half of things. Much as with the Scottish independence referendum, and in my opinion the forthcoming one over the UK's membership of the EU, people are generally small-c conservative when it comes to major changes and not really supportive. As Shahanshah noted up until fairly late on most locals were loyal to the government with those supporting independence being more of a fringe movement, at least until the government cocked a number of things up.


Probably outside the scope of this thread but I do have to wonder how it would have affected things politically in modern times. Back of an envelope calculations using the current day population figures for Northern Ireland and Ireland would give them roughly 84 Members of Parliament under the currently proposed boundary changes. It would also likely mean that the Battle Axe Guards might survive like the Yeomen of the Guard and the Royal Company of Archers as ceremonial bodyguard units in England and Wales and Scotland respectively, which would be cool simply for the use of battle axes. :)
 
I know things were/are a lot more complicated than just "Protestant = Unionist, "Catholic = Nationalist", but the religious difference certainly did not aid matters.

The fact that most Irishmen were loyal to the Catholic Church, at a time when the Pope called on Catholics to revolt against Elizabeth I (in his bull Regnans in Excelsis) made the religious difference highly problematic. It made the Irish pawns in the English/Spanish struggle and ultimately convinced Elizabeth and her successors that the way to pacify Ireland was to flood it with English/Scottish settlers.

I think the best way to make Ireland loyal to the Crown is to have Protestantism make inroads by this time. As noted above, an earlier translation of the Bible into Irish might have helped. If Edward VI had outlived his sister Mary, leading to a seamless religious transition to Elizabeth, that may have helped as well; in OTL, the re-established Church of England under Elizabeth had a serious shortage of trained clergymen in its early years. If we have Edward live to 1558 or sometime later, the C of E can have a more established clergy by the time Elizabeth takes over and may be able to launch more effective missionary efforts in Ireland.

Given how disastrous and shortsighted Elizabeth's Irish policy was ('wholesale social and cultural revolution but don't spend any money') I think a smooth Elizabeathen integration of Ireland is ASB - if anything things might have gone better if she had died before taking the throne.

While religion was certainly important I think it should not be overstated - the Old English largely remained loyal to the Crown despite their continued Roman Catholicism and their frankly appalling treatment by the Tudors. The Plantation systems probably inflicted a greater running sore, that of course in time fed into the religious situation.
 
WI the Irish Catholic Church split from Rome .... with the assistance of the English Crown .... the same way that the two churches split in Canada.

A distinctive Irish Catholic Church would enjoy almost the same status as the Church of England, glorifying the contributions of Saint Patrick on down ..... Ancient Irish church traditions would be "re-discovered" until the Church of Ireland resembled the Church of England (Anglican, Episcopalean).

Scottish Presbyterian invaders would be forced to tread more lightly on native-born Irishmen.

From an industrial perspective, we need to review Irish resources in terms of waterways and mineral resources. Did Ireland have large enough watersheds to power water-wheels?
Did Ireland have enough iron ore?
Did Ireland have enough clay to support industrialized potters?

Finally, could Ireland develop enough schools and universities (like Scotland) to generate a surplus of educated young men who were available to help exploit colonies similar to the way Scotsmen helped the Hudson's Bay Company exploit Canada?

What happened with the Catholic Church in Canada?
 
The potato famine is a problem due to a combination of factors limiting the government's actions. Part of it was that it was just so expensive, even benevolent landlords like Palmerston were forced to send almost two thousand tenants off to America in 1847 as the famine relief was costing four to five times what he made in rent from his lands. So how about the government and/or rich charitable types offering folks a one way tickets on ships to the US? In our timeline there was already large emigration to Canada, Newfoundland, and the US by those that could afford it themselves. Here the government could offer a berth and a small amount of cash in hand for when they arrived to any volunteers and still save themselves money. There would still be ill-feeling over the whole affair but with fewer deaths it might not be quite so bad for Anglo-Irish relations.
The potato blight was caused by a type of fungi termed a 'rust,' right? Let's say England hires their best plant scientists and gets them the money they need for labs and assistants, but it still doesn't work. Let's say growing other crops in Ireland only kind of sort of works.

How about expanded use of fishing?

I'm always surprised fishing is not more readily used, which to me is a much more dependable food source than agriculture anyway.
 
I wonder if the Americans had some sort of representation in parliament as a deal of staying part of the Empire, how they would have felt about the potato famine. Would they have backed the laissez-fair lazy Irish approach, or the let's help people starving to death one?
 

Morty Vicar

Banned
I wonder if the Americans had some sort of representation in parliament as a deal of staying part of the Empire, how they would have felt about the potato famine. Would they have backed the laissez-fair lazy Irish approach, or the let's help people starving to death one?

It's still fairly difficult to find enough food for everyone, in Belgium 40-50,000 people died from the potato blight, and theoretically it was easier to get food to them than it was to get food across the channel and over to Ireland. I think you either need to change the crops (maybe have a massive Irish whisky trade creating more grain crops) or limit the disease somehow.
 
The potato famine is a problem due to a combination of factors limiting the government's actions. Part of it was that it was just so expensive, even benevolent landlords like Palmerston were forced to send almost two thousand tenants off to America in 1847 as the famine relief was costing four to five times what he made in rent from his lands. So how about the government and/or rich charitable types offering folks a one way tickets on ships to the US? In our timeline there was already large emigration to Canada, Newfoundland, and the US by those that could afford it themselves. Here the government could offer a berth and a small amount of cash in hand for when they arrived to any volunteers and still save themselves money. There would still be ill-feeling over the whole affair but with fewer deaths it might not be quite so bad for Anglo-Irish relations.
It's still fairly difficult to find enough food for everyone, in Belgium 40-50,000 people died from the potato blight, and theoretically it was easier to get food to them than it was to get food across the channel and over to Ireland. I think you either need to change the crops (maybe have a massive Irish whisky trade creating more grain crops) or limit the disease somehow.

Which are useful references to the other bit about "Muh, Potato famine" that tends to get overlooked, the crops failed all across europe and people were desperate everywhere.

There was little, if any, agricultural excess to be found. The Revolutions of 1848 were directly caused by populations starving, and consequently somewhat unhappy with their central governments.

The answer to famine relief to Ireland is often ... with what?
 
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