AHC: Make the Hunnic Empire an actual sedentary, urbanized empire

[Deleted member 97083]

Attila's Empire was notably more of a series of tributary relationships and alliances against the Roman Empire between various migratory peoples, rather than an actual empire.

How could Attila's empire have turned into an actual sedentary and urbanized empire stretching from, at the least, the Danube to the Dnieper?

Would this empire be untenable due to the amount of non-Hunnic mercenaries used by Attila, all with their different rival identities? Or could a unified identity be created?

What happens after the Avar and Slavic migrations?

 

[Salvador79]

You mean, like Old Bulgaria, only farther west?

 

[Deleted member 97083]

You mean, like Old Bulgaria, only farther west?

Something along those lines, but more populated, if possible.

 

[Skallagrim]

It's an old saw, but the development of the heavy plough and three-field rotation would be an immense benefit. It always comes up, and at this point I hesitate to even mention it for that very reason, but of course... there's a reason it always comes up. These developments, which showed up together when they appeared in both China and Europe in OTL, were an enormous boon in heavy soil regions. In fact, the OTL development of these things are believed by many (including myself) to have been the key factor in facilitating much more intensive agriculture in Northern Europe. Which in turn led to vastly expanding populations, and eventually to the demographic (and in turn to the eventual political and economic) supremacy of Northern Europe.

The Huns, coming from a non-sedentary background, need a good reason to become fully sedentary early on. Well, the above is just about the best reason one can offer. It doesn't even need any political forethought: the benefits of becoming sedentary and agricultural are self-evident and self-escalating once you've got the right tech to reap such massive benefits. Couple that with the population explosion that will result, and you've got the basis for large population centres, i.e. the growth of cities and eventual urbanisation.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

It's an old saw, but the development of the heavy plough and three-field rotation would be an immense benefit. It always comes up, and at this point I hesitate to even mention it for that very reason, but of course... there's a reason it always comes up. These developments, which showed up together when they appeared in both China and Europe in OTL, were an enormous boon in heavy soil regions. In fact, the OTL development of these things are believed by many (including myself) to have been the key factor in facilitating much more intensive agriculture in Northern Europe. Which in turn led to vastly expanding populations, and eventually to the demographic (and in turn to the eventual political and economic) supremacy of Northern Europe.

The Huns, coming from a non-sedentary background, need a good reason to become fully sedentary early on. Well, the above is just about the best reason one can offer. It doesn't even need any political forethought: the benefits of becoming sedentary and agricultural are self-evident and self-escalating once you've got the right tech to reap such massive benefits. Couple that with the population explosion that will result, and you've got the basis for large population centres, i.e. the growth of cities and eventual urbanisation.

I can think of one motivation - Control.

Philip of Macedon insisted on settle Macedons not just in new cities, but in older ones as well, as it made them easier to control, recruit, etc. Attila or his successors could do the same, but with their various subjects.

As to food, well, the towns will likely figure out a way to adapt, but settlement near the Roman frontier (say on the Danube), and importing food from Rome is a start.

Unlike the Romans however, that motivation for control, gives the motivation to put effort into solving farming problems. The heavy plow isn't a difficult solution, it just needs the motivation. As to the need for the iron to make these in large numbers, the Huns are trying to settle and disarm a large number of former soldiers. Melt their swords.

Plus, they don't even need to invent it - the Chinese already have. If you're seriously looking at settling N.Europe, and you know anything about N.China, just go there, buy one (or the design), bring it back to Europe and copy it.

Sidenote : Honestly, if the Romans had come across a heavy plow or been giving it as part of an agricultural treatise, giving it to the Gauls or Dacians would have caused huuuge butterflies.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

It's an old saw, but the development of the heavy plough and three-field rotation would be an immense benefit. It always comes up, and at this point I hesitate to even mention it for that very reason, but of course... there's a reason it always comes up. These developments, which showed up together when they appeared in both China and Europe in OTL, were an enormous boon in heavy soil regions. In fact, the OTL development of these things are believed by many (including myself) to have been the key factor in facilitating much more intensive agriculture in Northern Europe. Which in turn led to vastly expanding populations, and eventually to the demographic (and in turn to the eventual political and economic) supremacy of Northern Europe.

The Huns, coming from a non-sedentary background, need a good reason to become fully sedentary early on. Well, the above is just about the best reason one can offer. It doesn't even need any political forethought: the benefits of becoming sedentary and agricultural are self-evident and self-escalating once you've got the right tech to reap such massive benefits. Couple that with the population explosion that will result, and you've got the basis for large population centres, i.e. the growth of cities and eventual urbanisation.

I suppose becoming sedentary itself shouldn't be too difficult. The Huns already tributarized the Germanic peoples, who were agricultural despite being migratory, and were sedentary before and after the age of migrations. And nomadic peoples have become professionalized cavalry-aristocracy of a sedentary society before--one need only look at Ancient Near East's Hyksos and Kassites. Or, of course, the Caliphates, both with the initial Arab conquest, and then the invitation of Turkic mercenaries under the Abbasids.

The difficulty seems to be finding a POD which both provides the heavy plough in the right place and the right time, and having the Huns remaining united at the same time.

I can think of one motivation - Control.

Philip of Macedon insisted on settle Macedons not just in new cities, but in older ones as well, as it made them easier to control, recruit, etc. Attila or his successors could do the same, but with their various subjects.

I wonder if the tributary tribes of the Hunnic Empire, resettled in its conquests, would become the future provinces of a Hunnic kingdom. Maybe a sedentarized Hunnic Empire would eventually adopt Gothic as its lingua franca, due to vassalizing so many Germanic tribes and the Goths being the most numerous among them.

Plus, they don't even need to invent it - the Chinese already have. If you're seriously looking at settling N.Europe, and you know anything about N.China, just go there, buy one (or the design), bring it back to Europe and copy it.

Perhaps Attila becomes magister militum of the eastern empire, then like Justinian sends monks to smuggle silkworms from China, but this time, a few Chinese retinues/prisoners/traders return with the monks. They are former farmers with knowledge of the heavy plough, settling in the Dniester valley as minor lords under Hunnic dominion and diffusing the heavy plough technology over a generation or two.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

I wonder if the tributary tribes of the Hunnic Empire, resettled in its conquests, would become the future provinces of a Hunnic kingdom. Maybe a sedentarized Hunnic Empire would eventually adopt Gothic as its lingua franca, due to vassalizing so many Germanic tribes and the Goths being the most numerous among them.

Perhaps Attila becomes magister militum of the eastern empire, then like Justinian sends monks to smuggle silkworms from China, but this time, a few Chinese retinues/prisoners/traders return with the monks. They are former farmers with knowledge of the heavy plough, settling in the Dniester valley as minor lords under Hunnic dominion and diffusing the heavy plough technology over a generation or two.

Gothic would probably dominate, alongside Hunnish (in a similar way to Latin and Greek in the Roman Empire). But considering the Huns already had some Goth used inside their federation, I can see that winning out, with Hunnish being a prestige language at best.

Why bother with the distraction of being magister militum? The Huns can fight on the Steppe, know it well enough, and can send an envoy - or even just someone to observe. There would have to be at least one farmer in the northern (non desert) regions of China willing to go west for enough gold, or at least sell his plough.

 

[inawarminister]

Man, a Gothic-speaking Hun empire lasting a couple of centuries in East Germany & Europe would lead to very, very interesting butterflies.

The empire is not this large, of course, but even so, a settled Gothic Hungaria-Ukraine-South Poland-Southeast Germany is doable no?
Would probably THE enemy of East Rome too, which would be sandwiched between Hun* and the Persians.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Man, a Gothic-speaking Hun empire lasting a couple of centuries in East Germany & Europe would lead to very, very interesting butterflies.

The empire is not this large, of course, but even so, a settled Gothic Hungaria-Ukraine-South Poland-Southeast Germany is doable no?
Would probably THE enemy of East Rome too, which would be sandwiched between Hun* and the Persians.

I think that Empire isn't unreasonable, but most of it will be empty space, and not at all populated. It'll be densely populated near the borders of Rome, i.e. in Dacia and Germania, but further out, the Steppe wins. (Although, settling near the Baltic region is possible too).

This leads to an interesting situation where the Long Border is a pain for both Empires. But the WRE has had someone else do the work in making Germania worth conquering, and given the time for some measure of stability as the Huns want tax-payers.

If there is a victory that shortens the border for the Romans in the West - (Even if it just a push to the Weser), then the Romans have started to solve some of their problems.

Forgive me if I think that the Romans are likely to be more stable than the Huns for a while. The Hunnic Empire might last for a few centuries, but it'll be increasingly made smaller, settling in Europe, and potentially riding out to Circassia, Central Asia, and potentially further, as well as invading Rome to capture more settlers

 

[Skallagrim]

Ukraine has very fertile soil, and with a heavy plough, would probably develop into a 'breadbasket' soon enough. Still vulnerable to attack from the north and east, of course...

Taking what we know into consideration, I think the core of the Hunnic Empire would indeed be noticably smaller than what's shown on the map @inawarminister linked, but the Hunnic sphere of influence would be only a smidge smaller (basically extending less far to the (north-)east and far west).

I can easily see a Hunnic Empire that directly controls the Pannonian Basin, the Carpathians and the Transylvanian plateau, the Romanian lowlands (the area north of the Danube and south and east of the Carpathians), Ukraine, Poland and the southern parts of the Baltics. So... basically a Hunnic Intermarium. Control over the Crimean peninsula would also yield control over the Black Sea, which would be very useful.

Beyond those areas, most of OTL Germany, Belarus and Eastern Ukraine / the Black Sea-Caspian Steppe would probably consist of tributary state(let)s etc. -- which would benefit from Hunnic agricultural tech, and would soon also develop more sizable populations. The fact that such peripheral regions would be unlikely to be directly controlled by the Hunnic Empire, while still becoming far more 'civilised' / densely populated, would make it much easier for the Romans to push into Germania and colonise up to the Weser or even the Elbe. (Just as @RogueTraderEnthusiast points out.)

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Why bother with the distraction of being magister militum? The Huns can fight on the Steppe, know it well enough, and can send an envoy - or even just someone to observe. There would have to be at least one farmer in the northern (non desert) regions of China willing to go west for enough gold, or at least sell his plough.

Would Attila even know that the heavy plough exists though? That's why I suggest he becomes magister militum: this could have Attila, with a new economic interest in the Roman Empire, send an expedition to China for other reasons, such as silkworms. Then if some Chinese blacksmith or farmer with knowledge of the heavy plough comes back as retinue, defector, or prisoner, this event could "accidentally" bring the heavy plough to the Hunnic Empire. Without a highly profitable impetus such as silk, it seems unlikely that an expedition would be conducted from Europe to China without a middleman.