AHC: Make the German Empire a democracy by 1910

I don't know much about the German Empire in the period between its formation and WWI, but there must have been some reformers within the empire. I was wondering if it was possible to reform the Empire into a state at least as democratic as Britain by 1910 (that is, 1910 Britain, not modern Britain). So some human rights, limited suffrage, and at least one elected house with real power. Is that possible? I'm assuming you'd have to have a pre-1900 PoD.
 

maverick

Banned
Most common/popular POD for this is to have Friedrich III survive in 1888 and become Kaiser instead of Wilhelm II, thus instituting Liberal reforms and getting the Reich closer to Britain, although I'm somewhat skeptic.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
I don't know much about the German Empire in the period between its formation and WWI, but there must have been some reformers within the empire. I was wondering if it was possible to reform the Empire into a state at least as democratic as Britain by 1910 (that is, 1910 Britain, not modern Britain). So some human rights, limited suffrage, and at least one elected house with real power. Is that possible? I'm assuming you'd have to have a pre-1900 PoD.

Err.

There was universal male suffrage in Germany. Britain didn't even have that yet..
 

Susano

Banned
Most common/popular POD for this is to have Friedrich III survive in 1888 and become Kaiser instead of Wilhelm II, thus instituting Liberal reforms and getting the Reich closer to Britain, although I'm somewhat skeptic.

Yes, Frederick III wasnt exactly the most strong-willed man of Germany, but still, its indeed probably the best shot.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
So Germany was already as democratic and even more so than Britain. Mission accomplished?

Effectively, yes. While the Kaiser kept much more authority than the King, he was no Tsar, and Willy's obsession with being popular kept him reasonably within the constraints of what the people wanted.
 

Susano

Banned
Effectively, yes. While the Kaiser kept much more authority than the King, he was no Tsar, and Willy's obsession with being popular kept him reasonably within the constraints of what the people wanted.

Eh. Not only had the Reichstag much less power than the Lower House vis a vis the Monarch, it also had much less power vis a vis the Upper House, i.e. the Bundesrat in the German case. The problem wasnt so much personal absolutism of the Monarch (though with the way he ended up going through Chancellors that was bad enough), but the rule of the nobility and junkers in accordance with the Emperor. And yet the Imperial level was the most democratic one. Basically all states had less demcoratic constitutions. If constitutions at all.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
It's quite easy, the Central Powers win WWI and use the next 90 year telling the world that it was a victory of Democracy over Autocracy, while German stay widely enough spoken that people fall for it. Which was more or less what USA and UK did in OTL.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Eh. Not only had the Reichstag much less power than the Lower House vis a vis the Monarch, it also had much less power vis a vis the Upper House, i.e. the Bundesrat in the German case. The problem wasnt so much personal absolutism of the Monarch (though with the way he ended up going through Chancellors that was bad enough), but the rule of the nobility and junkers in accordance with the Emperor. And yet the Imperial level was the most democratic one. Basically all states had less demcoratic constitutions. If constitutions at all.

You be quiet. He said German Empire. Not the individual states within it. Besides, the largest state, my beloved Prussia, had universal male suffrage.

Go back to throwing darts at a picture of Adenauer or somesuch! :p
 

Susano

Banned
You be quiet. He said German Empire. Not the individual states within it. Besides, the largest state, my beloved Prussia, had universal male suffrage.

Citing Prussias most infamous Three Classes elections as example for a good democracy is abit... uh... absurd?
 
Yes, Frederick III wasnt exactly the most strong-willed man of Germany, but still, its indeed probably the best shot.

Actually, more elegant would be having Wilhelm II suffer some calamity (I had that idea before, twisted enough, a "Vierkaiserjahr" although that'd be pretty unlikely) and have Wilhelm's brother Heinrich become emperor. I mean by outward appearance, he almost looked like a clone of his brother, but by personality, he was the complete antithesis...
 

Deleted member 1487

Remember thought that Germany was 4 different kingdoms, including Prussia where there was universal suffrage (for men), but only for the lower house of parliament, the Reichstag. It had limited powers and proportionally the 'commoners' had far less weight in parliaments. I don't know the policies for the states in the Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_(institution)
http://www.bundestag.de/kulturundgeschichte/geschichte/parlamentarismus/kaiserreich/index.html

Though the election practices were indeed more universal than most other republics, the Reichstag had very limited powers and can't truly be called a democracy, as representation was limited and hereditary posts controlled most policy and spending decisions.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_three-class_franchise
And of course Susano reminded me of this gem.
 
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maverick

Banned
Actually, more elegant would be having Wilhelm II suffer some calamity (I had that idea before, twisted enough, a "Vierkaiserjahr" although that'd be pretty unlikely) and have Wilhelm's brother Heinrich become emperor. I mean by outward appearance, he almost looked like a clone of his brother, but by personality, he was the complete antithesis...

Yes, Heinrich is interesting, but what were his politics like?

Would he have tried to reform or just sit back, be a hands-off Kaiser and let the Reichstag become more powerful by asserting itself?
 
Like I said, I don't know too much about the German Empire. So it looks like from what you've been saying is that although Germany did have elections and a parliament, but the Reichstag was far more powerless than the House of Commons. So what we need here is for Germany to go through the same process of giving power to parliament that Britain went through, except in 50 years instead of 500.
 

Susano

Banned
Yes, Heinrich is interesting, but what were his politics like?

Would he have tried to reform or just sit back, be a hands-off Kaiser and let the Reichstag become more powerful by asserting itself?

From all Ive heard he was strictly apolitical. So it would be the latter, meaning its the same problem as with his father: If the Emperor is all hands-off, then the nobility as represented in the Bundesrat will still have ample power to check the Reichstag from gaining more power.
 
My personal favorite approach would be via Red Revolution--the Social Democrats take over. The approach would be via more absolutism, not less, and right-wing political leadership screwing up stupidly, thus forging a Liberal/Left alliance.

When the dust settles, it might still be a constitutional monarchy--I said SDs "take over" but I'd happily settle for them being just a crucial and indispensable part of the winning populist coalition. It might be like Weimar but with the regime having the legitimacy of a victorious social revolution rather than appearing to be the product of foreign intervention. And it would start earlier and last longer, maybe indefinitely.

Having the crazy right wing remain rather strong in electoral terms might stabilize the role of the center parties--the Catholic Zentrum itself, but also small liberal groups--striking the balance between monarchists and more rabid proto-fascist rightists, and the Marxist socialist ambitions of the SDs, who in turn would probably prefer to tolerate a humanely regulated capitalism under the stewardship of the middle parties (who listen to them if they want to stay in power) rather than risk the rightists taking over.

That pretty much was Weimar, at its best.
 
Actually, more elegant would be having Wilhelm II suffer some calamity (I had that idea before, twisted enough, a "Vierkaiserjahr" although that'd be pretty unlikely) and have Wilhelm's brother Heinrich become emperor. I mean by outward appearance, he almost looked like a clone of his brother, but by personality, he was the complete antithesis...


A "vierkaiserjahr" might have come too late, as it would have been 1888, and the future Kronpronz Wilhelm was born in 1882, Perhaps if Wilhelm catches diphtheria from his brother Waldemar in 1878 - -.

Fingers crossed about Henry, but I agree he sounds better than Wilhelm.
 
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