AHC: Make the Chinese languages and culture extinct

  • Thread starter Deleted member 67076
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It almost happened OTL, except in 1904 Japan fought Russia and won, essentially removing any foothold Russia had on China.

Your still assuming that everything that happened outside of China will still happen as it did if the Xianbei supplant the Han. Save for a Muslim south China that I don't think would happen.

If the Xianbei do replace a greatly devastated Han culture, would they adopt several aspects of it. If the south does split up would we see the return of regional states in the south, and would Buddhism or Islam, if Islam still appears be able so spread in such an area?
 

scholar

Banned
Just thought I should bring this up:

The Xianbei weren't the only group involved in the 3rd and 4th century Wu Hu rebellion periods. Chinese culture provided an effective bridge between the many groups moving into China, many of them having already been sinicizing on the borders of China for centuries. The Xiongnu were the furthest along, the Di not far behind.
 
Other posters touched on converting South China to a separate religious culture while having North China ravaged by barbarian invasions. I would imagine something along the same lines but a 3rd century POD is IMVHO just too late for the culture which would develop to be called Han to be wiped out.

South China was incorporated into the Chinese empires by a process of acculturation and migration and as I understand grew hugely in population from a third of the Northern population in the 3rd century to triple the Northern population in the 8th. A little ironically that migration and acculturation was sped up (IIRC) by China being riven into different states and ravaged by all kinds of turmoil through these ages.

An alternative course to draw would extend the chain of Hindu-Buddhist, sanskrity kingdoms to the South Chinese coast in those intervening centuries so that there are too many people who are too secure in their own different civilisation by that point. The window is thereby closed for Northern China to ever securely conquer and incorporate the south. My knowledge is very bitty, so I don't know either whether the south Chinese population could boom in this way without the North Chinese influence or Indianising culture could reach this far. And even if you really stretch this culture's prospects, it seems a little implausible it could reach far north enough to become a permanent obstacle.


I would add that the coming of a modern world totalitarianism could later put a different spin on any historical cultural differences and refract them into an ideology of extirpation.
 
On a lightly related note, maybe in the south, where there was colonisation by Han in old days like Szechuan, there was many peoples... the ancestors of Viets and Thais peoples, by example, who fled south.

Change things around in history, maybe it's the Han who may get assimilated in the long run, if one strong culture in the south of modern PRC remains.

Not quite all he asked, but less chinese.
Maybe a new minority at least, like the Hui (chinese muslims) but Theravadan buddhists or Hinduists...
This. There's no need to introduce new cultures. Just find a way to decrease Han influence in the south and then have the north conquered by nomads. Something like the Kingdom of Dali could establish itself in Yunnan and then take over the surrounding areas.
 

scholar

Banned
This. There's no need to introduce new cultures. Just find a way to decrease Han influence in the south and then have the north conquered by nomads. Something like the Kingdom of Dali could establish itself in Yunnan and then take over the surrounding areas.
Han Culture had already made it to Vietnam and spawned several hybrid cultures before the first century, by 220 Sun Quan had made Han dominance in the South solid. Any attempt to take over the north would only open the doors to a stronger Chinese south as that's where the refugees will go.

The Kingdom of Dali was heavily sinified into Han culture, Yunnan province had been part of China for hundreds of years before its founding.
 
Han Culture had already made it to Vietnam and spawned several hybrid cultures before the first century, by 220 Sun Quan had made Han dominance in the South solid. Any attempt to take over the north would only open the doors to a stronger Chinese south as that's where the refugees will go.

The Kingdom of Dali was heavily sinified into Han culture, Yunnan province had been part of China for hundreds of years before its founding.
Did you read my post? I said you needed to find a way to decrease Han influence in the south. I don't see how your post refutes that. All it does is require the POD to be earlier in history.
 
While Han influencein the far south is very powerful already pretty early, demographic replacement is a somewhat later affair, a good chunk of it came even as late as the Yuan-to-Qing period.

Vietnam and Korea may be quite influenced by China but are still very distinct. You could get it at least to that point if you're careful and consistent.
 

scholar

Banned
Did you read my post? I said you needed to find a way to decrease Han influence in the south. I don't see how your post refutes that. All it does is require the POD to be earlier in history.
Of course I read your post, how else would I know that you made no reference to an earlier POD in it? If you had said that I would not have brought up points that made the POD prescribed by the OP being too late.

But I would have brought up that Dali was a poor example. It was similar to a Northern Dynasty in that it was founded by non-Han/Chinese peoples, but was sinicized nonetheless.
 
Did you read my post? I said you needed to find a way to decrease Han influence in the south. I don't see how your post refutes that. All it does is require the POD to be earlier in history.

Dali was already under Chinese influence by the time it came into being. You could be referring to the earlier state of Nanzhao, which was less sinicized. The language at the court of Dali was Chinese and the court culture was Chinese. Of course, this didn't always trickle down to the majority of the population, but I don't see why a stronger Dali would make the Chinese culture and language extinct. And from a written point of view, Classical Chinese could probably survive in Dali (and also Japan, Korea, and Vietnam) even if it went extinct in its land of origin.
 
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