AHC: Make the Allies win World War II, without the USA fighting Germany or Italy

Without the USA as heavily invested in the game as it was OTL could the Brits somehow get India to commit more to the war effort. If it is at all doable a fully mobilized India will mean the Allies can win any war of attrition, should it come to that.

If the British could make a few good decisions in regards to their position in the East, maybe keep French Indochina Allied and serve as a buffer-zone for Singapore, or even avoid war with the Japanese completely, then sure, there's no reason to not send the Army of India over to Africa or Europe. That Army was an entirely volunteer force IOTL, to try and avoid giving the nationalists in India fodder to make Britain leave. Still, it was a very large force and would've been a valuable asset had Britain needed to call it in.

It would have been lovely to butterfly away the Bengel Famine, which is considered by some to have been caused by basically consumers stepping on each other's toes more than any deliberate act by the government (please don't erupt that into a flame war). All those lives saved aside, it could keep up enough goodwill to get the Indians to commit more to the war.
 
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Anything that results in Barbarossa self-destructing at or west of the Pskov-Smolensk-Denieper line will do the job, as it means the overwhelming majority of Soviet economic and manpower losses suffered IOTL 1941-1942 simply do not happen. That means lend-lease goes from "extremely important" to merely "a nice thing to have, but not necessary."

For that to happen, Germany would need to suffer a cock-up big enough to take a large toll on the Barbarossa force, but not big enough to not invade the Soviet Union. Maybe taking France, after a long, painful grind, followed by the Allies holding on to at least some of Greece?
 
There can't be a PoD before the 1st September 1939. Nazi Germany must be, in geopolitical terms, 'crushed' to count as an Allied win. At no point does either the United States or Germany/Italy declare war on each other. The US can fight Japan. The Soviet Union may join the Allies, as OTL.

Big swooping invasions and operations asides, how would the combatant nations and their peoples be affected? I would suppose that the Axis would have a slightly easier time and the Allies would have to make up for an awful lot of material advantage, and fight for a period beyond 1945. What sort of repercussions would that entail? Also, how about the post-war world, what would the Balance of Power be?

For added difficulty, have the PoD after the 22nd June 1940, when France signs the armistice. It is totally fine for French colonies to either immediately or eventually come over to the Allied cause.

The most obvious thing is for France not to fall in June 1940

Perhaps a larger more effective Battle of Arras - Frankforce is not repulsed and the 3rd Light Mechanised Division (3rd DLM) manages to launch its assault into the flank of a German effort to dislodge Frankforce on the 23rd May

50th 'TT' Div + an entire Tank Brigade attacks and additional French Units

Rommel is badly wounded and his adj killed attempting to rally element of his Infantry that had broken in the early stages of the battle and an Armoured car Squadron overruns a heavy flak battery in column of march before terrorising rear echelon units for the next few hours

A fanatical counter attack by elements of the SS Totenkopf Division later in the day almost stops the British attack but despite its fanatism its inexperiance (relative to Heer units) leads to heavy casaulties (particularly among Junior officers and NCOs) early in the battle and by night fall the Divisions fighting arms are shattered - in some cases completely routed.

Panic ensues as OKW beleives that 5 british Divisions (4 of which the German Intellegence services were unaware of) have attacked and that both the 7th Pz and Totenkopf divisions have been destroyed (Mauled and partially routed but not destroyed).

A Halt order is given to the 'Sickle cut spearheads' as the German high command feeds more forces into that particular fight.

The Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler attacks positions held by the now understrength 8th Battalion Durham Light Infantry who had dug in over night.

Both the 8th DLI and the 2 fighting battalions of the LSSAH are shattered and the SS unit's fantical assaults are no substitute to its lack of infantry experiance and training which result's in very heavy losses particularly among its Junior officers and NCOs.

While this attack 'goes in' the German high command now convinced that the panzer army is going to be surrounded by some cunning British Plan using divisions that were hidden from them order the spearhead to prepare to break out back along the way it attacked and attempt a smaller encirclement to the one planned.

.....and so on

Basically Case Yellow fails to deliver and the Battle for France devolves into a battle of Attrition after the failure of the Panzer Army to encircle and destroy the BEF and Mobile forces in Belgium and North Eastern France.

The Line is stabilised and the French High command is given breathing room to reinforce, reorg and get a grip

As the weeks pass the German attack runs out of steam and while the Entente are pushed back almost as far as Paris - the Heer and LW are both exhausted particularly among the Elite pz and LW ground attack formations and Material losses are heavy on both sides.

1940 closes with a 1914 Xmas type opposing trench lines (in reality a very long skirmish line with defence in depth and large reserves).

By June 1941 the BEF in France is now 20 Divisions Strong + 3 Indian and 2 Canadian Divisions, with the French adding 5 more

Franco British Airpower now out numbers the LW by more than 2 : 1 and a newly establish chain home line and additional airfields allow the airforces to establish air superiority

In north Africa Wavel Leads a victory march into Tripoli after O'conners Victory earlier in the year in Cyrenaica and French forces besieging Tripoli after heavy fighting on the Tunisian Border

The Entente War council had maanged to convince Churchill to reinforce success and no troops are sent to reinforce the Greeks (who as it turns out were quite capable of handling the Italian invasion on their own) or were any of O'Conners troops sent to East Africa before it was Clear that the Italian forces in North Africa were finished.

and so on...
 
If Italy joins then fighting Russia may never come about because the single directed focus of the German assault is ruined. Likewise Mussolini joining removes Africa from the war as a place to send forces.

Likewise Italian airpower is added in to UK and French airpower. With Italy taking up the slack those fighter planes Churchill did not want to send to France now should be sent in to help out.

Sure this is still the germans tactical abilities but now the two front war returns. A front in france is joined by one in the Austrian alps. it makes a really fine positions for a slogging war and not a blitzkrieg.

The thing about mountain warfare is that it heavily favous the defender. The Italians themselves learned this the hard way fighting Austria-Hungary in the last war. Aside from the air war, I can't see Italy posing much of a threat to Germany. Then there is the question of why they would even do to war, when they coukd just sit out, sell to both sides and watch the two kill each other. Mussolini was bad, but he wasn't stupid enough to attack Germany via the Alps. Was he?

And yes, people, I'm bringing the thread back to life. Try setting the PoD after the start of Barbarossa, to ensure that the Soviet Union joins the Allies.
 
There can't be a PoD before the 1st September 1939. Nazi Germany must be, in geopolitical terms, 'crushed' to count as an Allied win. At no point does either the United States or Germany/Italy declare war on each other. The US can fight Japan. The Soviet Union may join the Allies, as OTL.

Big swooping invasions and operations asides, how would the combatant nations and their peoples be affected? I would suppose that the Axis would have a slightly easier time and the Allies would have to make up for an awful lot of material advantage, and fight for a period beyond 1945. What sort of repercussions would that entail? Also, how about the post-war world, what would the Balance of Power be?

For added difficulty, have the PoD after the 22nd June 1940, when France signs the armistice. It is totally fine for French colonies to either immediately or eventually come over to the Allied cause.

Uh, Hitler goes Sea mammal? Most of German army is destroyed, UK mops up the rest with land assult. Soviet Union may declare war on Germany after Sea mammal to maybe claim some influence over Europe as well.
 
US drops atom bomb on Japan, Japan surrenders

Hitler vows never to surrender

Operation Valkyrie takes him out

New German Government negotiates conditional surrender with England/Russia

(Yes, Einstein still writes his famous letter and US builds bomb so they have it just in case some one else gets it and when Japan refuses to surrender Truman drops them like he did in OTL)
 
For that to happen, Germany would need to suffer a cock-up big enough to take a large toll on the Barbarossa force, but not big enough to not invade the Soviet Union.

Mostly. Stalin coming to his senses in the months leading up to Barbarossa could do it. With as little as two weeks to a month to actually prepare, the Soviets will still lose the frontier battles but they drag it out for longer and are able to salvage more of the Western and Northwestern Fronts while inflicting greater losses upon the Germans. That leaves the Germans too exhausted to breakthrough the Soviet forces which have had time to deploy along the Denieper-Pskov line.

Another possibility is that the final Soviet Smolensk counter-offensive in early September succeeds (as it came close to doing). That would dislocate AGC's drive south, avert the Kiev encirclement, and butterfly away Vyazma-Bryansk. AGC's causing chaos with the Southwestern Front, Army Group South can't successfully exploit any breakthrough out of its bridgehead at Cherkassy. Barbarossa effectively stalls on the Leningrad-Smolensk-Kiev line.

A final possibility is that Hitler post-pones Barbarossa a year in order to try and knock Britain out of the war but doesn't manage to do it. Then he decides to go ahead with Barbarossa anyways. I've detailed what that entails here.

Maybe taking France, after a long, painful grind, followed by the Allies holding on to at least some of Greece?
France being more difficult but still ultimately falling could do it, yeah.
 
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US drops atom bomb on Japan, Japan surrenders

Hitler vows never to surrender

Operation Valkyrie takes him out

New German Government negotiates conditional surrender with England/Russia

(Yes, Einstein still writes his famous letter and US builds bomb so they have it just in case some one else gets it and when Japan refuses to surrender Truman drops them like he did in OTL)

Would the drive really exist to start the Manhattan Project? If, somehow, the Tizard Mission doesn't happen, and Tube Alloys is never shown to the Americans, a lot less american scientists are going to be sure a Bomb is even possible. Even if they do, the chances of the Nazis spending the resources and he time to get the Bomb, and finding a way to actually hit an American target are so small that there might be an overwhelming feeling of treading on paths Man was not allowed to tread on.

In any case, they had a lopsided material advantage over Japan anyway. By the time Iwo Jima was taken, cracks were forming in the Japanese morale. Some people actually conclude that Japan would've surrendered without the Atomic Bomb, or at least after the Americans land on the beachs of the Home Islands.

There is no real danger of Germany getting the Bomb. The Nazis had started five Atomic Bomb programs, none of which shared resources or information with each other. It was another case of Hitlers 'social darwinism' concluding that the best-organised program would come out on top.
 
Agreed. For bonus points, the British don't hand Tube Alloys over to the Americans and focus resources on a domestic bomb project meaning several German cities get A-bombed around 1946 or so (not having the USA in has got to delay the war at least that long).

There is no way the British would have got Tube Alloys working by 1946. The Germans had a far more heavyweight team of nuclear physicists, who, if properly directed and funded, would have anticipated the British effort by years
 
There is no way the British would have got Tube Alloys working by 1946. The Germans had a far more heavyweight team of nuclear physicists, who, if properly directed and funded, would have anticipated the British effort by years

While it is unlikely the British (and Canadians!) get the Bomb by 1946, I can be sure in saying that Germany would, as long as the Nazis were in power, never get it first. I am not exaggerating when I say that Nazi Germany was quite possibly the most inefficient state in modern history. Hitler, IIRC, detested the idea of the Bomb (what can I say, the guy had some standards), and by the end of 1941, it was decided that an Atomic Bomb could not provide a decisive role in ending the war. Many European scientists, running away from the Nazi State, would likely end up in Britain or Canada, and get drafted to work on Tube Alloys. Hell, the Soviets have their own Bomb project, with its own resources and brilliant scientists, and if Britain is desperate enough, it will share the effort with the USSR.
 
Yeah, IIRC scientists who examined the programs in the post-war period said the Japanese program was (slightly) better run than the nazi one.
 
Yeah, IIRC scientists who examined the programs in the post-war period said the Japanese program was (slightly) better run than the nazi one.

Really? Wow.

Any guesses on when Britain/USSR get the Bomb? 1950? Would the war even last that long?
 
A thread on the feasability of the Commonwealth getting the Bomb on its own: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=204541

The consenus is that Britain made the right breakthroughs and got lucky in guessing what technologies would be best to use, that Tube Alloys, if giving the right amount of love, would produce an atmic bomb without eating up too much of Britain's resources. Whether it would take three years or ten, however, is up to contention.
 
Yeah, IIRC scientists who examined the programs in the post-war period said the Japanese program was (slightly) better run than the nazi one.

Wasn't the problem that Heisenberg had quite literally made a calculating error? As in, one of the big problems holding up the German a-bomb programme was the fact that one of their core mathematical assumptions was simply incorrect.
 
A-Bombs aside, how else is the Allies going to crush the Axis? A Germany still in control of most of Europe isn't likely to give up if the Allies could only build one bomb a year. Japan had to very nearly be overrun for the Bomb to make the knock-out blow. Given how far Hitler had manged to push Germany until he commited suicide, it is very much possibile that fanatical elements of the government (imagine if Heydrich survived to ~1945) would take control and prod Germany into continuing the war.
 
Wasn't the problem that Heisenberg had quite literally made a calculating error? As in, one of the big problems holding up the German a-bomb programme was the fact that one of their core mathematical assumptions was simply incorrect.
That, and they had what, 6-7 competing projects, all clamouring for funds and trying to derive the others? At least the Japanese only had 2.
 
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