AHC: Make the 19th century less of a China-screw

tenthring

Banned
I think they would have done better if:

1) It was a young versus an old dynasty in power
2) It was a native rather then conquest dynasty
 
There are ways to make it better with a XIXth century PoD.

Basically, we see that the pattern if for colonies to happen when there is no authority in place to discuss trade with.
A couple exceptions to that rule: India which is colonisation before it was cool and happened without stately input, Algeria which was colonised to plunder their coffers and prop up Charles X and Indochine, because the French wanted to get to China.

China had a state, with a relatively stable organisation (compared to African kingdoms anyway) which could enforce treaties, especially in trade. However they kept being quite stubborn and not realising the world had changed and they were no longer top dog.
Problem is, the Chinese market was just too big to be left alone, so Europeans had to force their way in.

If China had acted like Japan with a voluntary to semi-voluntary opening, it would have been way less of a screw. Open ports and trade after the first Opium war, maybe access to the Chinese markets for European in exchange for a stop/limit to the Opium trade for example would do wonders I believe.
 
Another problem about China is that it was too rich but at the same time unable to protect itself.

They could buy foreign weapons and army specialists to reform their military. If they have such tons of money.

You can buy everything. Destroyers, submarines, railways, factories, schools, ironclads, machine guns, uniforms, telegraphs, phones...
 

RousseauX

Donor
They could buy foreign weapons and army specialists to reform their military. If they have such tons of money.

You can buy everything. Destroyers, submarines, railways, factories, schools, ironclads, machine guns, uniforms, telegraphs, phones...

That's exactly what they did though.

The problem is that building a modern army and navy consists way more than simply buying equipment and calling it a day. And success are often as damaging to the ruling regime as failure. The Qing after all was overthrown by the modern army which had being created in the late 1800s.
 

RousseauX

Donor
There are ways to make it better with a XIXth century PoD.

Basically, we see that the pattern if for colonies to happen when there is no authority in place to discuss trade with.
A couple exceptions to that rule: India which is colonisation before it was cool and happened without stately input, Algeria which was colonised to plunder their coffers and prop up Charles X and Indochine, because the French wanted to get to China.

China had a state, with a relatively stable organisation (compared to African kingdoms anyway) which could enforce treaties, especially in trade. However they kept being quite stubborn and not realising the world had changed and they were no longer top dog.
Problem is, the Chinese market was just too big to be left alone, so Europeans had to force their way in.

If China had acted like Japan with a voluntary to semi-voluntary opening, it would have been way less of a screw. Open ports and trade after the first Opium war, maybe access to the Chinese markets for European in exchange for a stop/limit to the Opium trade for example would do wonders I believe.

But that's basically what did happen though.

And Opium was a sticking point after the Second Opium war precisely because Europeans -didn't- have all that much else to offer to the Chinese market.
 
What about a reform movement emerging in the 1840's (after the First Opium War) and replacing the Taiping revolt as the most important opposition movement against the emperor?

Then, some important bureaucrats and army officers (in the South-East of China, in the near of Canton and the British concessions) decide to overthrow the Emperor and to install some reformist Emperor.

Revolution ends in 1860, modernizations ends in 1890. Vietnam, Laos, Korea and Cambodia become Chinese colonies, Japan and China fight wars over their sphere of influence. A major war against a European nation (something like China against Russia) shows the world that the Middle Kingdom is a world power again.

In an ATL Great War, they will most likely fight against UK to get their land back, so will either have to fight Russia too (if Russia is allied with France and the UK like OTL) or will fight with Russia against UK and Germany.
 
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