AHC: make sure the “clean Wehrmacht” myth non-existent, and have the Wehrmacht have as bad as a post war reputation as the SS

TDM

Kicked
@TDM

How did Franz Halder influence the creators of 'Allo, 'Allo ! ?

man what?

do you think the dissemination of ideas in public consciousness and media down through several decades of time might just be a tiny bit more complex that Franz Halder's ghost swapping out TV scripts in the 80's :rolleyes:

either way your assertion that the myth was only a thing in a certain subsection of military aficionados is wrong as shown. And you little one line "well how did Halder make Commando comics and allo, allo happen" is ironically just pointing out even further how wrong your assertion is.
 
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Cuirassier

Banned
The Clean Wehrmacht myth being peddled in academic circles led to it being peddled in popular culture, is the point. Not saying he directly influenced said creators, but that the discussion did.
Clean Wehrmacht myth wasn't peddled in academic circles (atleast outside of early West Germany). Only certain pop authors did.
It all comes back to the rearmament and rehabilitation of Germany. As another poster above said:
I’m so incredible tired over the entire discussion about the Clean Wehrmacht “myth”. Everyone knew it was bullshit from the start, but it was useful bullshit which allowed people on both sides to move on. But once in a while there come some person who think everyone else are too stupid to know this and begin their crusade against the myth everyone knows is a myth, but is allowed to survive because it served a useful purpose.
do you think the dissemination of ideas in public consciousness and media down through several decades of time might just a tiny bit more complex that Franz Halder's ghost swapping out TV scripts in the 80's
Keep up with the conversation.:rolleyes:
The OP said:
Remove the persons at the origin of the source materials
Implying the authors were actually influential.
 
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TDM

Kicked
Clean Wehrmacht myth wasn't peddled in academic circles. Only certain pop authors did.
It all comes back to the rearmament and rehabilitation of Germany. As another poster above said:


Keep up with the conversation.:rolleyes:
The OP said:

Implying the authors were actually influential.

You need to do some more reading

maybe then your eye rolling won't further underline you don't really know what you are talking about here
 
I'm sorry while it might nice to believe we all know better today, but it's not true. Especially when you have groups who have vested interest in promoting the Clean Wehrmacht myth for their one more current purposes.

No one have a vested interest in promoting it today, any vested interest in promoting the “myth” disappeared when officer corps and civil servants was replaced with the people who wasn’t officers or part of the Nazi administration under the War. Now people are simply tired of other people keep obsessing over it. In fact we see the Germans decided to treat the former East German regime in a similar manners, which have had the same success in allowing people to move on.
 

Cuirassier

Banned
maybe then your eye rolling won't further underline you don't really know what you are talking about here
Pot meet kettle.
Don't act smug and point to wikipedia, but if you must do not forget to quote the relevant bits.

But thank you anyway, you just showed how important West German rehabilitation was.
 

TDM

Kicked
No one have a vested interest in promoting it today, any vested interest in promoting the “myth” disappeared when officer corps and civil servants was replaced with the people who wasn’t officers or part of the Nazi administration under the War. Now people are simply tired of other people keep obsessing over it. In fact we see the Germans decided to treat the former East German regime in a similar manners, which have had the same success in allowing people to move on.


If you look at the myth you see it often goes hand in hand with downplaying the Nazis full stop, forgetting or pushing the war crimes to the background, and ignoring the reality that it's not just the pantomime villains with skulls on their caps we have to watch out for,# when the same old concerns are raised and fed off . So yeah sorry still very much an ongoing part of the battle of ideas today

Plus as pointed out people still believe it for a range reasons so it's actually still worth countering just on that alone

So while you might be tired of people "obsessing" over it

1). you're not the whole world and everyone in it.

2). Frankly I don't really care if you are

But even with that honestly is that your point? why oh why do we have to keep learning the truth of what happened in the most cataclysmic and awful events that helped shape our world today? Really, when did learning from history become a bad thing?
 
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TDM

Kicked
Pot meet kettle.
Don't act smug and point to wikipedia, but if you must do not forget to quote the relevant bits.

Oh I think you could do with reading the whole lot


But thank you anyway, you just showed how important West German rehabilitation was.

Assuming your not being sarcastic, you do get that the wider acceptance that the clean Wehrmacht myth was a myth as an ongoing process from the 90' onwards was part of that right?
 

Cuirassier

Banned
But even with that honestly is that your point? why oh why do we have to keep learning the truth of what happened in the most cataclysmic and awful events that helped shape our world today? Really, when did learning from history become a bad thing?
Learning history is never a bad thing, but erecting strawmen so that we can keep striking them down does not further historical enquiry.
Whatever we do on internet forums doesn't amount to much in the grand scheme of things. There is no need for you to act like a tortured soul.

From Omer Bartov's German Soldiers and the Holocaust:
It should also be noted that the state of knowledge regarding the army's involvement in Nazi crimes was not a function of any substantial lack in archival sources. Large quantities of German documents were taken to Britain and the United States after the war and later returned to Germany; much of the material eventually used by scholars had been available long before it was examined. What was lacking in those first two decades was scholarly interest, not evidence, as well as the more obvious limitations imposed on research by the vast amounts of material and the laborious process of its organization and categorization. At least as crucial, however, was the impact of certain interpretive concepts of Nazism specifically and methodological conventions about historical research more generally. This meant that during the reign of the paradigms of totalitarianism and fascism, scholars were often more interested in theory than in fact, and that with the emergence of social history, historians devoted little attention to the military.8 Consequenriy, the only scholars to examine army records were so-called "pure" military historians, whose interests lay more in tactics and strategy, command and logistics, than in ideology and criminality. Mainstream historians therefore tended to rely mainly on the memoirs of German generals and veterans' accounts for the reconstruction of the soldiers' experience in the war. And precisely because former soldiers understandably stressed their professionalism and denied any ideological or organizational links with the regime, they were viewed as objective and reliable sources. It took a generation of scholars more skeptical about the explanatory power of the old paradigms, less tnistful of former soldiers and, not least, willing to undermine the myths on which West German society was founded, to finally venture into the archives and begin to write the history of the Wehrmacht's relationship with the Nazi regime.

The material wasn't lacking. Different people had their own reasons for not taking a close look.
Oh I think you could do with reading the whole lot
Oh I don't know, if you were capable of "copy + paste" maybe I would read it.
 
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TDM

Kicked
Learning history is never a bad thing, but erecting strawmen so that we can keep striking them down does not further historical enquiry.
Whatever we do on internet forums doesn't amount to much in the grand scheme of things. There is no need for you to act like a tortured soul.

From Omer Bartov's German Soldiers and the Holocaust:


The material wasn't really lacking.

Didn't say it was? But the fact it wasn't doesn't prove your point. Because (now steady yourself because you might find this next a bit shocking) not every historian out there draws on the same sources or even comes to the same conclusions as others if they do.

although actually one of the things that has helped fight the myth in the 1996 was the publication of lots of intercepted SS-Heer cables, (just one of the things in the link I gave)


Oh I don't know, if you were capable of "copy + paste" maybe I could read it.

Are you saying the only thing stopping you from reading it is I didn't copy and paste it from the wiki link I gave you? What was your point about material wasn't lacking again?
 

Cuirassier

Banned
What was your point about material wasn't lacking again?
Halder et al. may have found willing listeners among certain circles but there was abundant documentation to rubbish all of his claims. Then why did the allied powers (who had all the proof they could want) not do enough?
The OP talked about German officers spreading myths. I said that their mythology was not crucial because it was paper thin. The receptivity of the audience to the soothing message is the most important feature.
People wanted Germany rehabilitated. If you don't let that happen for a generation then nobody would want a "Clean Wehrmacht".

Academics can be accused of not trying hard enough, but outside of Germany they almost never gave credence to the lies peddled by ex-Nazis. Historians born after the war had taken the myth apart.
the myth in the 1996 was the publication of lots of intercepted SS-Heer cables, (just one of the things in the link I gave)
There was no need for your link. Bartov mentions that the UK had intercepted a lot of messages transmitted from Russia in 1941 that implicated the army in mass murder.
 
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TDM

Kicked
Also I do like how a thread asking how can we avoid the Clean Wehrmacht myth, has now turned into, oh there's wasn't really that myth / everyone knew it was a myth of convenience so it doesn't count, it was only a few military aficionados anyway and it's sooo tiresome to keep banging on about it anymore anyway.

Irony, not just a bit like Iron
 
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If you look at the myth you see it often goes hand in hand with downplaying the Nazis full stop, forgetting or pushing teh war crimes to teh background, and the reality that is not just the pantomime villains with skulls oh their caps we have to watch out for, when the same old concerns are raised and fed off . So yeah sorry still very much an ongoing part fo the battle of ideas today

There’s a Nazi in my closet, there’s a Nazi beneath my bed, I can’t close my eyes for fear of Nazi coming forth.
 

TDM

Kicked
Halder et al. may have found willing listeners among some circles but there was abundant documentation to rubbish all of his claims. Then why did the allied powers (who had all the proof they could want) not do enough?
The OP talked about German officers spreading myths. I said that their mythology was not crucial because it was paper thin. The receptivity of the audience to the soothing message is the most important feature.
People wanted Germany rehabilitated. If you don't let that happen for a generation then you nobody would want a "Clean Wehrmacht".

Academics can be accused of not trying hard enough, but outside of Germany they mostly did not give credence to outright lies peddled by ex-Nazis.

The mere presence of the proof somewhere doesn't mean it was universally known let alone accepted, teh willingness of the audience being as you say a key thing here
 

Cuirassier

Banned
it was only a few military aficionados anyway and it's sooo tiresome to keep banging on about it anymore anyway.
It is 2020, we are posting on an online history forum and you are no historian so of course it is tiresome. Going round and round in circles is tiresome to most people (perhaps not to you).
 
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Also i do like how a thread asking how can we avoid the Clean Wehrmacht myth, has now turned into, oh there's wasn't really that myth /everyone knew it was a myth, it was only a few military aficionados anyway and it's sooo tiresome to keep banging on about it anymore anyway.

Irony, not just a bit like Iron

There was a “myth”, which was everyone moving on. So the easiest way not to have the myth is too keep everyone from moving on. That could be a Morgenthau plan being implemenoted, so USA have to spend decades defending their genocide against the Germans or you could have a Nazi victory and a American-German Cold War
 

TDM

Kicked
There’s a Nazi in my closet, there’s a Nazi beneath my bed, I can’t close my eyes for fear of Nazi coming forth.

Cool, so you've invented a magic pill that ends racism, genocide and hatred and otherwise inoculates us against it happening again, good for you I'll expect to see it in the shops any day now right?

There's nothing uniquely evil about Germans you know
 

Cuirassier

Banned
Cool, so you've invented a magic pill that ends racism, genocide and hatred and otherwise inoculates us against it happening again, good for you I'll expect to see it in the shops any day now right?
Have you invented it? You are not going to do that by arguing on an internet posting board.
 

TDM

Kicked
It is 2020, we are posting on an online history forum and you are no historian so of course it is tiresome. Going round and round in circles is tiresome to most people (perhaps not to you).

The fact we're on on historical forum and you are claiming it was only a few few military aficionados who clung to this myth kind of suggests there is still some work to go even in 2020

Which I agree is somewhat tiresome.
 
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@TDM

How did Franz Halder influence the creators of 'Allo, 'Allo ! ?

With limp celery.


One thing not mentioned is as time passes the subject being discussed also changes. So depictions of honourable nazis in the 70s and 80s are at least as much about contemporary Germans aka our nato allies as ww2.

The clean Wehrmacht has also probably been less mythologised by German historians btw who have done a lot of work, Just in German.

Although I would recommend Rutherford combat and genocide on the eastern front 1941 -44 which follows three ID from the start to end of the campaign..

It an objective assessment of crimes would go way beyond the Wehrmacht, there is a lot to be said for the idea of blaming the SS so we won’t have to hang half of germany.
 

Cuirassier

Banned
you are claiming it was only a few few military aficionados who clung to this myth kind if suggest there still some work to go even in 2020
We certainly need to do some work on your reading.
The OP included popular memory, I explicitly did not. Try to keep up.
there is a lot to be said for the idea of blaming the SS so we won’t have to hang half of germany.
Even if you included the entire army and other land forces it wouldn't come close to that.
 
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