well there some pretty strong parallels between the two in terms of the attitudes and the rationale behind either myth
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AHC: make sure the “clean Wehrmacht” myth non-existent, and have the Wehrmacht have as bad as a post war reputation as the SS
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well there some pretty strong parallels between the two in terms of the attitudes and the rationale behind either myth
Well, the only ones who had the expertise and know-how were the same Nazi scientists, so no choice.
They were further along than most, and certainly had more practical experience but it's really not like Rocketry was a specifically German science that Werner Von B and team gifted to the world who had previously no concept of the idea or the science behind it.
He and his team certainty helped and thus certainly reduced teh time it would have otherwise taken, but it's a matter of speed not of it being possible at all
However a point that I think that gets forgotten is that he and his team actually spent years working on rockets for the US army first before NASA was even created, he was very much a military acquisition. And again the stuff he worked on was framed as competing with the Soviets threat (specifically in ballistic missiles armed with nuclear warheads). So really again the parallels with them and teh newly re-forged Bundeswehr are pretty clear.
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You are on the right track, but take it one step further.
The overall view in the Western public consciousness really up through to the early 70s was just following orders was no excuse for racial killings, but acts that one might term ugly warfare as in having a military rational were not seen the same way. From the early 70s thru really the early 90s that just following orders label expanded to ugly warfare. By the mid 90s just following orders being no excuse was expanded to military service in general for Germany in the war.
There are always shades of grey
No side was completely innocent and no side was unredemeably evil. English pilots were ordered to kill German piolets who bailed out and might be rescued. I remember reading when they went into Belgium some British units were ordered to take no prisoners (technically legal at the time) on D=day there are reports of the Canadians shooting prisoners - all armies committed rape and looting,
a 16 year old German boy whose sole war service was in an AA unit defending the city his mother and sisters lived in is not guilty of war crimes although his service may have prolonged the war
Part of the problem with the myth of the clean german army is that it was a western myth and generally the war in the west followed the rules of war. There were atrocities - on both sides but more German than allied - but an allied soildier generally could expect to be taken POW and recieve medical attention.
On the Eastern front both sides fought by different rules - then you had the 'special actions' and the camps which are a whole different degree of dark
No side was completely innocent and no side was unredemeably evil. English pilots were ordered to kill German piolets who bailed out and might be rescued. I remember reading when they went into Belgium some British units were ordered to take no prisoners (technically legal at the time) on D=day there are reports of the Canadians shooting prisoners - all armies committed rape and looting,
a 16 year old German boy whose sole war service was in an AA unit defending the city his mother and sisters lived in is not guilty of war crimes although his service may have prolonged the war
Part of the problem with the myth of the clean german army is that it was a western myth and generally the war in the west followed the rules of war. There were atrocities - on both sides but more German than allied - but an allied soildier generally could expect to be taken POW and recieve medical attention.
On the Eastern front both sides fought by different rules - then you had the 'special actions' and the camps which are a whole different degree of dark
For example, the designer of the Atlas was a Belgian, Karel Bossart, who emigrated to the United States before World War II. While as an ICBM Atlas wasn't that great (but then, neither was the R-7), as a launch vehicle it proved to be excellent, as did the related Centaur upper stage. To be honest, I've grown skeptical over time that having or not having von Braun would have had much effect from the technical side of things; even once you get into the Saturns and Novas there were quite a few ideas from people who were not German that could possibly have been applied.
Shame that the US pissed away the early lead that Goddard gave them. I wonder what the US missile/rocket program if he'd been able to get even moderate government funding in the 30's. Perhaps a V1 Analog by the time of the US entrance into the war at the least.
The story is significantly more complex than that. Goddard also tends to be overrated; the business is about big teams, not individuals (despite what I said about Karel Bossart above), which is something that Goddard didn't really grasp. I recommend the biography Rocket Man to better understand what was going on.
Goddard wasn't really interested in that sort of thing, so probably not.
Yeah quite, you sometimes get the impression that people think Werner was some kind of wizard, but really his most important contribution was in driving the German rocketry programme forward before and during the war not just in terms of securing funding and interest but in team building and accumulating a body of knowledge. That's obviously significant of course, but I'm pretty sure that if other programs had been as active in other countries they likely would have been in comparable positions. But as you say later it's complicated with a synergy between individuals, interest and resources being key. (I guess my overall point is WvonB isn't the only possible individual to play that role)
V1's not really the same thing (although I guess there must be some crossover over at some levels), Ultimately it took the allies all of a couple of months to recreate a V1 anyway.
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They had former NSDAP members as ministers until 1989 and even today the SED successor Die Linke has a former Nazi on their board of seniority.
Herrmann Klenner became the chief lawmaker of the SED and their in 1984 delegate to the UN. The representative of Israel rightfully called out this hypocrisy.
I was just thinking it even showed up in "kids" cartoons, like Justice League's "The Savage Time":
(Wonder Woman saves Steve Trevor and his contact Ernst)
Ernst: Danke, fraulein!
Wondy: ...you're German.
Ernst (distraught): We're not all like them.
To be fair, a German civilian is a much easier "sell" than a German soldier filling the trope. And there were civilians and soldiers who honestly never supported the regime. But that's the law and weight of averages for you.
It is the competition aspect which is important here. By 1944 and certainly by 1945, it was clear that there was a major rivalry between the West and the East. Both sides thus were eager to capture as much German research and researchers as possible to speed along their own programmes.
Besides not knowing what secret R&D the Germans were cooking up, the allies already knew that Germany was ahead of them in jet fighter development, rocketry etc. Both sides wanted that research.
In hindsight, the West and Russia could likely have developed all the new technology on its own but that would have taken too much time. War could break out between the former allies at any time was the popular thinking so having some ex-Nazi's provide a kick-start was acceptable. And to make the Nazi's acceptable, their background and image was polished...
For this scenario to happen the cold war needs to be avoided, so either somehow the USSR become democratic or the rest of the world become communistic.
Here is a quick scenario (and maybe unrealistic, maybe) how the USSR can become democratic.
The USSR invades Finland just as the OTL
The Finns however do some changes, they immediately start targeting "support" systems such as cooking equipment, warming equipment and tents by doing raids directly from the start. The Finns did target cooking equipment in the original timeline, but a bit later. The USSR also did not have enough tents for all of it soldiers and no winter tents. Without food or shelter the soldiers will die because of the elements a person can not survive long in such conditions without enough food and inadequate shelter. So the Soviet soldiers will either die of starvation / cold, or be forced to stop where they are and make shelter and heating.
And here comes a major difference.
At the same time this is happening the Finns openly declare that they welcome anyone who lays down their arms and they will be treated humanly, allowed to live in Finland and given some land. Unlike the OTL where relatively few prisoners were taken.
The Finns will openly and clearly say that the Stalinist system is bad and anyone who wants to come and live here can do so.
This may then create a huge influx of Soviet soldiers deciding to accept the offer.
In the OTL when the nazis invaded USSR some at first greeted the nazis as liberators from Stalin.
If enough soldiers decide to take the offer, the Finns can advance to Leningrad and give everyone along the way the same offer, if this succeeds then onto Moscow offering an end to the Stalinist system.
If done properly and smartly then it could be possible to have a democratic take over of the USSR.
The Finns install democracy but keeps a lot of the military equipment and changes the economy, but smartly so, allowing for private business but at the same time having some of the state business going to prevent massive unemployment and also keeps the military at a similar size because it is obvious that the Germans will attack.
Then when Germany invades in 1941 this democratic mega Finland or maybe some other name, is able to win against Germany perhaps even faster than the OTL and if that happens with a democratic "Russia" the clean myth wehrmacht never happens
Here is a quick scenario (and maybe unrealistic, maybe) how the USSR can become democratic.
The USSR invades Finland just as the OTL
The Finns however do some changes, they immediately start targeting "support" systems such as cooking equipment, warming equipment and tents by doing raids directly from the start. The Finns did target cooking equipment in the original timeline, but a bit later. The USSR also did not have enough tents for all of it soldiers and no winter tents. Without food or shelter the soldiers will die because of the elements a person can not survive long in such conditions without enough food and inadequate shelter. So the Soviet soldiers will either die of starvation / cold, or be forced to stop where they are and make shelter and heating.
And here comes a major difference.
At the same time this is happening the Finns openly declare that they welcome anyone who lays down their arms and they will be treated humanly, allowed to live in Finland and given some land. Unlike the OTL where relatively few prisoners were taken.
The Finns will openly and clearly say that the Stalinist system is bad and anyone who wants to come and live here can do so.
This may then create a huge influx of Soviet soldiers deciding to accept the offer.
In the OTL when the nazis invaded USSR some at first greeted the nazis as liberators from Stalin.
If enough soldiers decide to take the offer, the Finns can advance to Leningrad and give everyone along the way the same offer, if this succeeds then onto Moscow offering an end to the Stalinist system.
If done properly and smartly then it could be possible to have a democratic take over of the USSR.
The Finns install democracy but keeps a lot of the military equipment and changes the economy, but smartly so, allowing for private business but at the same time having some of the state business going to prevent massive unemployment and also keeps the military at a similar size because it is obvious that the Germans will attack.
Then when Germany invades in 1941 this democratic mega Finland or maybe some other name, is able to win against Germany perhaps even faster than the OTL and if that happens with a democratic "Russia" the clean myth wehrmacht never happens
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Have the Wehrmacht act like the US Army in the pacific. By which I mean go full Khornate and collect skulls as trophies, and take photos of themselves doing it.
Ficboy
Banned
We get it except neo-Nazis. To be fair there were some outliers and I must assure everyone I would never ever support Nazi Germany much less the ideology for obvious reasons.
Ew!
Yup. I remember those old comics too.
I know most sources I encountered before Glantz's work bought into the myth to some degree. It was especially prevalent in pop culture.
The mess in Iraq is a good counter example. I think the "clean Wehrmacht" myth does seriously distort the actual history of WW2, and thus leads to people regularly drawing incorrect lessons from it. It seems to me that both extremes are bad, and some middle path where we get good at recognizing crimes in history while accepting that people who have been part of making those crimes happen can be part of building something better would be useful.
fasquardon