The title is self-explanatory. After 1640 the Iberian Union was dissolved, but when could Portugal and Spain reform this Union during the XIX Century ? Maybe if Infante Carlos and D. Miguel won the thrones of their respective nations and somehow had a Royal marriage or an alliance ?
AHC: Make Portugal and Spain be united as one Nation after the Napoleonic Wars
- Thread starter Kaiser of Brazil
- Start date
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- iberian union portugal spain
Maybe The Royal family stays in Brazil and renounces the Throne of Portugal to rule instead the Throne of Brazil, and the Portuguese offer the Spanish the crown of Portugal
Lusitania
Donor
No even if royal family stays in Rio the Portuguese people would never accept a Spanish King. First the 19th century was also start if nationalism. Secondly Spain was a basket case in the 19th century full of civil wars.
The Portuguese are different culture, language and will not be subvert to Spain.
The Portuguese are different culture, language and will not be subvert to Spain.
It's possible, and nearly did happen.
After the Glorious Revolution deposed Queen Isabel II in 1868, one of the candidates for the vacant Spanish Throne was Fernando II of Portugal, who abdicated the throne after the death of his wife Maria II. Have him get elected, and you’ll be seeing an Iberian union by the 1880s. Assuming he doesn't get pulled from the throne before that.
After the Glorious Revolution deposed Queen Isabel II in 1868, one of the candidates for the vacant Spanish Throne was Fernando II of Portugal, who abdicated the throne after the death of his wife Maria II. Have him get elected, and you’ll be seeing an Iberian union by the 1880s. Assuming he doesn't get pulled from the throne before that.
Lusitania
Donor
Sorry but still not going to happen. The two countries are two different. They do not speak same language. Like sting Spain and France going to unite. No way people not accept it.
What about as a dual Monarchy similar to Austria ? And Portuguese isn't much different from Spanish and even share a few words.
Lusitania
Donor
Sorry we not much different. As portuguese I take offense to that. We have a different language, culture and a separate andar times antagonist relationship. Be same as saying french and Spanish unite. They both speak a Latin language and are on same continent
I am a Brazilian that speaks Portuguese, I learned Spanish with quite ease and their texts can be easily translated. Spanish isn't much different from Portuguese and foreigners (especially Americans) think it is the same language with a different dialect. And if language is what would prevent a Union of two nations, then how did the Austrian-Hungarian, Ottoman, and Yugoslav Nations lasted for so long ?
Last I checked Spanish is nowhere near the same language as Catalan, Galician or Basque, but they still are within Spain, (Catalonia more begrudgingly than most, but still applies. ) Plus, there was a Pan-Iberian movement going on, which while small in scale compared to those in Scandinavia or the South Slavic region, it still called for a union under a more federal structure, not too different from Spain today. So it is still very feasible and possible. It just takes a little bit of right mindset to move it along.
Lusitania
Donor
Learning the language is not the issue. We talking about culture and history. The Portuguese had been together with Spain in the Iberian Union from 1580-1640 and it was a disaster for the Portuguese and in 1640 they kicked the Spsinish officials out of country. So to unite them again in the 19th century will not work. If that been tried the 1910 revolution be much sooner.
Think Brazil uniting with Argentina and capital being in buenos Aeres and all Brazilians going to learn Spanish. How that fly in Rio or São Paulo.
The only way I could think of at this point would be a communist revolution creating the People’s Republic of Iberia. A monarch union after the Napoleonic wars seems out of reach.
@Antonio the Komnenoi I should probably warn you that some Portuguese members of alternatehistory.com (especially Lusitania) tend to get a little bit worked up every time something like this is discussed. Please do not feel offended if the discussion ends up getting a little... spirited.
Anyway, I'll try my best to explain why this is impossible, as I realize it may not be clear to non-portuguese people (even other lusophones). The reason why Portugal and Spain could never unify is not so much because of cultural differences (I recognize that these are relatively few, and probably comparable to the differences between Spain's own several autonomous communities), but more because of the way Portuguese national consciousness developed historically. The Kingdom Portugal was born in the middle ages out of a rebellion agaisnt the Spanish-precurssor Kingdom of Leon. It is important to note that this rebellion did not happen due to any cultural differences between Portugal and the rest of Leon but more because Portuguese noblemen (or, rather, the noblemen in the region between Porto and Gaia- which was the original extent of Portuguese domains) felt that Leonese crown was not protecting their interests. As a result, Portuguese culture and national identity, which only developed after the independence, have always placed themselves in direct opposition to Leonese, and later Castillan and Spanish culture and identity.
Not being Spanish is a core aspect of being Portuguese. Resistance to assimilation by Spain is a sentiment that is too deeply ingrained into the Portuguese mindset for any sort of unifcation to be possible. The fiasco of the original Iberian Union (which, by the way, happaned during a time of immense Spanish prosperity, and still, it was short-lived and never got to a point in which it could be said that the two countries were effectively one) served to greatly reinforce these notions.
As such, I think it's very safe to say that any sort of iberism during this time is doomed to failure right from the start.
Anyway, I'll try my best to explain why this is impossible, as I realize it may not be clear to non-portuguese people (even other lusophones). The reason why Portugal and Spain could never unify is not so much because of cultural differences (I recognize that these are relatively few, and probably comparable to the differences between Spain's own several autonomous communities), but more because of the way Portuguese national consciousness developed historically. The Kingdom Portugal was born in the middle ages out of a rebellion agaisnt the Spanish-precurssor Kingdom of Leon. It is important to note that this rebellion did not happen due to any cultural differences between Portugal and the rest of Leon but more because Portuguese noblemen (or, rather, the noblemen in the region between Porto and Gaia- which was the original extent of Portuguese domains) felt that Leonese crown was not protecting their interests. As a result, Portuguese culture and national identity, which only developed after the independence, have always placed themselves in direct opposition to Leonese, and later Castillan and Spanish culture and identity.
Not being Spanish is a core aspect of being Portuguese. Resistance to assimilation by Spain is a sentiment that is too deeply ingrained into the Portuguese mindset for any sort of unifcation to be possible. The fiasco of the original Iberian Union (which, by the way, happaned during a time of immense Spanish prosperity, and still, it was short-lived and never got to a point in which it could be said that the two countries were effectively one) served to greatly reinforce these notions.
As such, I think it's very safe to say that any sort of iberism during this time is doomed to failure right from the start.
I do agree with your points, @Joao97 but at the same time, the challenge did say to form the union, I do not think such a union would be built to last and that was not part of the challenge.
Still, it gives me at least a new perspective with regards to tackling an Iberian Union analogue. Especially if I still want Fernando II as King of Spain
Still, it gives me at least a new perspective with regards to tackling an Iberian Union analogue. Especially if I still want Fernando II as King of Spain
Well, I agree that you can interpret the challange like that, but to me it kind of feels like cheating. If all you need is to manufacture a political situation for union that only lasts for two weeks, then it isn't really much of a challenge. It would only make sense to tackle this question if we were trying to build something that could function like a normal country for significant amount of time.
Anyway, even for your "moderate" goals you'd need a pre-1820 PoD. All Portuguese constitutions after that date explicitly prohibited any sort of personal union. Also, Fernando II was no longer king of Portugal by 1868.
The problem is, neither of the two constituents of this union would accept ceding power to the other. The portuguese would never be part of a state where they would eventually lose influence to the more populous spanish speaking entities. The Spanish, being the majority, would never comply with sharing power with a minority, even though it'd be a very angry and loud one. Even if we consider the possibility of a federation between all the Iberian regions, the leonese-castillian interests would still become the priority as I imagine it.
And that's not even going over the heated ATL debate on where the capital of this union should be: Lisbon or Madrid? A fishing town or a scorching desert?
This is something Spaniards and Portugals, under no circumstances, cannot agree on. Both of them would probably flip a finger at the Catalans, though.
And that's not even going over the heated ATL debate on where the capital of this union should be: Lisbon or Madrid? A fishing town or a scorching desert?
This is something Spaniards and Portugals, under no circumstances, cannot agree on. Both of them would probably flip a finger at the Catalans, though.
Iberian nationalism was a thing in the first half of the 19th century, mainly proposed by Spanish liberals. Have the Carlists win at first to oush them over the edge and force them to act on their idea to offer the Spanish Crown to the Braganzas. I don’t know if this country would survive until today, but it’s definitely possible to unite them for a few decades at least.