AHC:Make Piast Poland lasting powerhouse with equal strength as PLC

How would you make lasting Piast Poland happen

  • Boleslav I the Brave being more succesful

    Votes: 5 20.0%
  • Boleslav II the Generous being not deposed

    Votes: 3 12.0%
  • Casimir the Great having children

    Votes: 17 68.0%

  • Total voters
    25

krieger

Banned
The thread is simple. How would you make lasting Piast (hereditary) Poland a powerhouse with equal strenghth as PLC had in OTL? I think, that there were three opportunities to have scenario like this. Firstly, we could have Boleslav I the Brave being more succesful and achieving his goal of unifying all Western Slavs under his rule and therefore creating the state containing all Obodrites, Velests, Lusatians, Czechs, Slovaks and OTL Poles in it's borders. It could be powerful, because Bohemia alone in Middle Ages was a powerful kingdom due to gold resources and we have Slovakia in this state also and Slovakia gave Hungary a lot of advantage (gold mines and copper mines) in Middle Ages. The expansion on the East could also happen in this scenario (I don't know if as advanced as in OTL) because "Polish" (it would be rather "Slavic" or "Slavonic") kings could take the role of TO OTL and start conquering Baltic tribes (but I don't know if it would be succesfull and if it would be - to how degree?). I think that this kingdom would be a mortal enemy of Hungary (the struggle for being greatest power in Eastern Europe, so no "Polish-Hungarian friendship") so we could see also "Polish" interventions in Red Ruthenia. The second possiblity is to have Boleslav II the Generous not deposed and crown maintained in his line. It would lead Poland to avoiding "The regional partitions" (IOTL they lasted from 1138 to 1318 and Poland never fully recovered, because it lost Silesia) and not waste the opportunities wasted by these period. The third option (but it would require a lot of luck) is have Casimir III have sons, these sons outliving Louis the Great and being old enough to marry one of his daughters, and therefore taking advantage from situation of Hungary. The Casimir's III lineage could also help Hussites in their struggle or marry Elizabeth of Luxembourg and gain her lands for themselves. Which possibility is the most interesting/most realistic one for You?
 
I'd say Poland reunited by Przemysł II should do better than Poland under Władysław Łokietek (as I've mentioned here:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wenceslaus-ii-of-bohemia-dies-in-1295.446966/
Not only Poland keeps Pomerelia, Czech Kingdom is not as dangerous rival without Luxembourgs on the throne, who besides Czechia get also Brandenburg and Imperial throne). Other option is Łokietek dying during late 1290s/early 1300s, while Henryk of Głogów lives longer. I n such situation not only reunited Poland keeps Pomerelia but also gets most of Lower Silesia. Wrocław is squeezed between Duchy of Głogów and independent Duchy of Świdnica, so Henryk is in better position to take control of it than Czechs. With Pomerelia and Silesia and no conflict with Teutonic Order, Poland would be free to expand to the East on her own, and with Piasts still on the throne would enjoy more dynastic stability.
 
PLC was a powerhouse?
Depends on definition of powerhouse, but I'd say it was-under Bathory and early Sigismund III.

Returning to the options from the poll: Bolesław II keeping the throne is most promising (and not that hard to do, his brother Władysław Herman remaining loyal to him, or just dying earlier would be enough). Some sort of feudal fragmentami on could happen anyway, but with Piasts keeping Royal title it would be easier to overcome (local dukes from cadet branches would be at least nominally subjects of one king).
 

krieger

Banned
PLC was a powerhouse?
Wasn't it? I know, that You as a Lithuanian have every possible reason to dislike this period but it definitely was. It was stronger than majority of it's neighbours by decent amount of time. Nobility just wasted the opportunities coming from it.
 
Wasn't it? I know, that You as a Lithuanian have every possible reason to dislike this period but it definitely was. It was stronger than majority of it's neighbours by decent amount of time. Nobility just wasted the opportunities coming from it.
If we count the PLC as having been a powerhouse under Stephen Bathory and initial years of Sigismund Vasa, then that's only 20 years of 'being a powerhouse', which strikes me as a very circumstantial classification.
 

krieger

Banned
I'd say Poland reunited by Przemysł II should do better than Poland under Władysław Łokietek (as I've mentioned here:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wenceslaus-ii-of-bohemia-dies-in-1295.446966/
Not only Poland keeps Pomerelia, Czech Kingdom is not as dangerous rival without Luxembourgs on the throne, who besides Czechia get also Brandenburg and Imperial throne). Other option is Łokietek dying during late 1290s/early 1300s, while Henryk of Głogów lives longer. I n such situation not only reunited Poland keeps Pomerelia but also gets most of Lower Silesia. Wrocław is squeezed between Duchy of Głogów and independent Duchy of Świdnica, so Henryk is in better position to take control of it than Czechs. With Pomerelia and Silesia and no conflict with Teutonic Order, Poland would be free to expand to the East on her own, and with Piasts still on the throne would enjoy more dynastic stability.
It'd definitely do better than Poland reunified by Łokietek IOTL, but I don't know if it could achieve power comparable to OTL PLC. But I always liked Przemysł II, so give this scenario a little bit of attention. How we could achieve such an effect? I'd say if Pomeranian duke Mściwój II died after Kępno treaty and before Henry IV of Silesia than Przemysł II would be a lot stronger in confrontation with Wenceslas II and Przemysł could manage to maintain his rule in Cracow for a decent period of time. Maybe some form of reconciliation with Wenceslas could happen and Przemysł could marry one of his sisters or daughters and have a son (let's name him Przemysł III after his father and King Przemysł Ottokar II). Przemysł reunites Poland in the borders similar to Bolesław the Wrymouth's ones and dies. And there we have a problem with Wencesla's III death - is it still going to happen in the same time as IOTL? If yes, who would be next king of Bohemia in such a scenario?
 

krieger

Banned
If we count the PLC as having been a powerhouse under Stephen Bathory and initial years of Sigismund Vasa, then that's only 20 years of 'being a powerhouse', which strikes me as a very circumstantial classification.
I'd say it's a underestimated thesis. PLC was able to succesfuly pillage and fight with it's neigbours at least until mid-Sigismund Vasa (treaty of Dywilno) and the defeats which were happening later weren't crucial since Chmielnicki's Uprising and their reason was not the lack of potential on PLC's side. PLC was the richest and probably the most populous country of it's region. The problem was the mindset of nobility, who started to decline. And nobility was the crucial power in the state.
 
If we count the PLC as having been a powerhouse under Stephen Bathory and initial years of Sigismund Vasa, then that's only 20 years of 'being a powerhouse', which strikes me as a very circumstantial classification.
I think it’s fair to say that the PLC was for at least a majority of it’s existence a fairly powerful state although the term powerhouse might be a little exaggerated (though technically it’s all in the eye of the beholder really).
 

krieger

Banned
Depends on definition of powerhouse, but I'd say it was-under Bathory and early Sigismund III.

Returning to the options from the poll: Bolesław II keeping the throne is most promising (and not that hard to do, his brother Władysław Herman remaining loyal to him, or just dying earlier would be enough). Some sort of feudal fragmentami on could happen anyway, but with Piasts keeping Royal title it would be easier to overcome (local dukes from cadet branches would be at least nominally subjects of one king).
It's definitely easiest to do (let's have Stanisław from Szczepanowo died before Bolesław engaged in struggle with him), but is it the most promising? I think the most promising option is to have his grandfather succeeded in creating unified Western Slavic state (and it's also not that hard to do - we can let Otto III live longer or have Henry II captured at the Merserburg and therefore forced to meet Boleslav's and rebellious German nobles's allied with him demands).
 

krieger

Banned
I think it’s fair to say that the PLC was for at least a majority of it’s existence a fairly powerful state although the term powerhouse might be a little exaggerated (though technically it’s all in the eye of the beholder really).
I think this state had a potential to become powerhouse, but sadly wasted it a lot of time. By saying "powerhouse" I was mostly reffering to potential of this state which was bigger than it's neighbours before PLC's decline.
 
I think this state had a potential to become powerhouse, but sadly wasted it a lot of time. By saying "powerhouse" I was mostly reffering to potential of this state which was bigger than it's neighbours before PLC's decline.
I’ve heard that the Duchy of Warsaw collected about the same in taxes that the much larger PLC had years earlier and the Duchy was mostly an extraction colony for Napoleon’s wars so I imagine the potential of a Polish state without the overwhelming influence of powerful Noble families and their interests in Ukrainian estates would be greater than the OTL PLC (especially if this state contains Silesia and Pomeriania).
 

krieger

Banned
I’ve heard that the Duchy of Warsaw collected about the same in taxes that the much larger PLC had years earlier and the Duchy was mostly an extraction colony for Napoleon’s wars so I imagine the potential of a Polish state without the overwhelming influence of powerful Noble families and their interests in Ukrainian estates would be greater than the OTL PLC (especially if this state contains Silesia and Pomeriania).
Not so much. This "Ukrainian estates" were the source of PLC's incomes. Removing noble influence as overwhelming as IOTL would be the most important change.
 
The thread is simple. How would you make lasting Piast (hereditary) Poland a powerhouse with equal strenghth as PLC had in OTL? I think, that there were three opportunities to have scenario like this. Firstly, we could have Boleslav I the Brave being more succesful and achieving his goal of unifying all Western Slavs under his rule and therefore creating the state containing all Obodrites, Velests, Lusatians, Czechs, Slovaks and OTL Poles in it's borders. It could be powerful, because Bohemia alone in Middle Ages was a powerful kingdom due to gold resources and we have Slovakia in this state also and Slovakia gave Hungary a lot of advantage (gold mines and copper mines) in Middle Ages. The expansion on the East could also happen in this scenario (I don't know if as advanced as in OTL) because "Polish" (it would be rather "Slavic" or "Slavonic") kings could take the role of TO OTL and start conquering Baltic tribes

AFAIK, the Baltic tribes conquered by the TO were mostly to the North from Poland, not to the East. To the East there was Lithuania, which was never conquered by the TO. ;)

220px-Teutonic_Order_1260.png


Anyway, the whole schema looks like creation of the monstrosity consisting of the ethnically diverse groups not related to each other by anything besides a general notion that they are "Slaves" (would anybody really care during the Middle Ages) and not having any overwhelmingly strong center (political, demographic, economic). Could such a state survive for quite a while? Sure: look at the Hapsburg Empire (well, they did have some external "backup" for quite a while) or to the PLC. Would it be able to stand up to the internal and external challenges is anybody's guess.
 
I think this state had a potential to become powerhouse, but sadly wasted it a lot of time. By saying "powerhouse" I was mostly reffering to potential of this state which was bigger than it's neighbours before PLC's decline.

Prior to the creation of the PLC the Grand Duchy had a greater territory than Poland but was much weaker even in Witold's times (look at the contingents at Grunwald). By the time of the Time of Troubles territory of the Tsardom of Moscow was bigger than one of the PLC and it was anything but a "powerhouse". By the time the PLC was achieving its greatest expansion it was losing Livonia to a much smaller Sweden.
 

krieger

Banned
AFAIK, the Baltic tribes conquered by the TO were mostly to the North from Poland, not to the East. To the East there was Lithuania, which was never conquered by the TO. ;)

220px-Teutonic_Order_1260.png


Anyway, the whole schema looks like creation of the monstrosity consisting of the ethnically diverse groups not related to each other by anything besides a general notion that they are "Slaves" (would anybody really care during the Middle Ages) and not having any overwhelmingly strong center (political, demographic, economic). Could such a state survive for quite a while? Sure: look at the Hapsburg Empire (well, they did have some external "backup" for quite a while) or to the PLC. Would it be able to stand up to the internal and external challenges is anybody's guess.
I know that Baltic tribes conquered by TO were mostly to the north of Poland. I oversimplified things. When I was writing the post to who You are replying to, I meant that if something like TO appeared ITTL that it could count on support of this "Slavonic" kingdom. It would lead to engagement in conflict with Lithuanians and making TO and Livonian Order vassals of "Slavonic" kings. That situation could lead to "Slavonic" kings taking the role of Lithuania IOTL and conquering a big chunk of Ruthenia. I am not so sure. The fact, that in Middle Ages no one cared about ethnicity is a double-bladed sword. Czech and Pole at this time were no more distinct than Bavarian and Saxon to themselves. And yet, somehow Germany exists.
 

krieger

Banned
Prior to the creation of the PLC the Grand Duchy had a greater territory than Poland but was much weaker even in Witold's times (look at the contingents at Grunwald). By the time of the Time of Troubles territory of the Tsardom of Moscow was bigger than one of the PLC and it was anything but a "powerhouse". By the time the PLC was achieving its greatest expansion it was losing Livonia to a much smaller Sweden.
By saying "potential" I didn't mean only area. I was thinking more about things such as economy or population - both better than in neighbourhood. Losing Livonia was an effect of too large power of nobility.
 
Not so much. This "Ukrainian estates" were the source of PLC's incomes. Removing noble influence as overwhelming as IOTL would be the most important change.
That’s quite interesting. The sentiment I’ve seen most often regarding the PLC’s failings is that the country was destroyed by the greedy nobles but I wasn’t aware they were such major contributors. I wonder what the major source of revenue for this alternate “Slavonic” state would be. Perhaps Silesia and the Vistula trade?
 

krieger

Banned
That’s quite interesting. The sentiment I’ve seen most often regarding the PLC’s failings is that the country was destroyed by the greedy nobles but I wasn’t aware they were such major contributors. I wonder what the major source of revenue for this alternate “Slavonic” state would be. Perhaps Silesia and the Vistula trade?
The problem with the nobles wasn't economical. Magnates on Ukraine had a lot of achievements in developing that region. It was rather political. Sejm had too much to say in state affairs and it wasn't connected with gaining Ukraine because the fundaments of the system were already there before Union of Lublin and rise of Ukrainian estates. "Slavonic" state would leech off gold and copper mines in Bohemia and Slovakia, who built Hungarian and Bohemian power IOTL.
 
By saying "potential" I didn't mean only area. I was thinking more about things such as economy or population - both better than in neighbourhood. Losing Livonia was an effect of too large power of nobility.

Well, most of the areas included in the proposed scenario would add little in the terms of economy and I doubt that Bohemia would willingly consider itself a cash cow for indefinite period of time. As for the population, AFAIK, population of the PLC by the early XVII was greater than of Tsardom of Moscow and much greater than one of Sweden. Losing Livonia was a result of the numerous factors but it is quite clear that when it happen PLC's military system started noticeably lagging behind the "Western" level: they still could win in the field thanks to the superb cavalry but could not defend the cities or take the fortified places. Reforms by Wladislaw did not result in a major breakthrough in that direction. BTW, if nobility had so much power how come that the Great Hetman of Lithuania, Radziwill, had been repeatedly asking Sigismund for the financial help and not getting any because Sigismund wanted his own client (also a major magnate)? It is too easy to blame everything upon the faceless "nobility" but surely the kings also had some responsibility for what's going on.

An idea of having an absolute monarch as a factor improving "efficiency" of the state is not new and it may or may not work depending upon the circumstances. In Tsardom of Moscow an absolute monarch, Ivan IV, basically run country to the ground both economically and by his expansionist policies. Sigismund also was looking for as much expansion as possible and Wladislaw followed the trend. A result was unmitigated disaster with a big loss of a territory and devastation of the country. In the case of a maximum expansion all the way to include Slovakia the country would become even more strategically vulnerable than in OTL and it is an open question if all these assorted nations would be eager to defend it or if there would be Khmelnitsky on steroids scenario.
 
Top