AHC : Make Palaeologid Montferrat rule N.Italy

As the title states, have Montferrat under the Palaeologids control Italy, detailing whichever PoD you want, and the after effects.

I'm curious as to the impact the cadet house of an Imperial dynasty would have on Italian politics if they were the premier power in Italy.
 
If anything the Italian branch would use their newfound power to claim Greece.. by the end of the Empire the Montferrat branch owned more land than the Byzantine branch.
 
If anything the Italian branch would use their newfound power to claim Greece.. by the end of the Empire the Montferrat branch owned more land than the Byzantine branch.

How would that work though, sure they are related - but they are also vassals of the HRE - dominating N.Italy gives them the strength, but then going and invading the ERE on the premise of being the rightful Emperor creates an interesting situation politically. Is the Emperor then the King of Italy and Emperor of the Romans - both Vassal and counterpart of the HRE? Or would he take the gamble for the simpler relationship of just being independent - I can't see that going well, not unless this Kingdom of Italy is very strong and able to hold the Alps.
 
This would take a great bit of luck. Montferrat doesn't have a lot of manpower, and Savoy had been eyeing that territory since the previous dynasty (the Aleramici). The only reason they lasted this long was because the Montferrati Paleologoi basically manuvered themselves to be Savoy's vassal, especially in the later reigns.

I think the better chance would be under Giovanni Giacomo (r. 1418-1445). He embarked on a degree of expansion and chafed at Savoyard servitude, but was defeated (the former because French help wasn't forthcoming).

If you can get some powerful benefactors to help Montferrat (someone closer to it than the Emperor), then you might have a chance of them using that to their advantage, at least expanding at the expense of Savoy & Milan. After that, it's up in the air, really.
 
I think that their best bet at hegemony in Northern Italy would be through a marriage alliance that ultimately leads them to inherit Milan when the Visconti family disgregates in the aftermath of Gian Galeazzo death. One of the family could become a successful Capitano di Ventura and basically install himself in Milan like Sforza did.
Monferrato becoming hegemon of Piedmont under the Palaiologi seems otherwise rather difficult: historically they had big problems even in just affirming their rule over the comuni of Asti and Alessandria.
 
I think that their best bet at hegemony in Northern Italy would be through a marriage alliance that ultimately leads them to inherit Milan when the Visconti family disgregates in the aftermath of Gian Galeazzo death. One of the family could become a successful Capitano di Ventura and basically install himself in Milan like Sforza did.
Monferrato becoming hegemon of Piedmont under the Palaiologi seems otherwise rather difficult: historically they had big problems even in just affirming their rule over the comuni of Asti and Alessandria.

Agree. Search solid political marriages and having very lucky inheritances in the meanwhile, enter in the vacuum of power left by the Visconti, and make a solid base in western Piedmont. Maybe accepting Savoy for a while as protector would be useful but historically Eastern Piedmont was stable so would be hard eventually to escape later from Savoyard jurisdiction. However was highly sensible to French invasions and influence. If the Paleologi would offer the French some incentive maybe...

Also, to find a way to produce more wine, and sell it at high prices; and invest it in quality wool and silk fabric production. Maybe wooing Genoa or Venice or Florence to aim over this. Get loans for local investments and let them fruit.
 
Agree. Search solid political marriages and having very lucky inheritances in the meanwhile, enter in the vacuum of power left by the Visconti, and make a solid base in western Piedmont. Maybe accepting Savoy for a while as protector would be useful but historically Eastern Piedmont was stable so would be hard eventually to escape later from Savoyard jurisdiction. However was highly sensible to French invasions and influence. If the Paleologi would offer the French some incentive maybe...

Also, to find a way to produce more wine, and sell it at high prices; and invest it in quality wool and silk fabric production. Maybe wooing Genoa or Venice or Florence to aim over this. Get loans for local investments and let them fruit.

Interesting - Venice and Genoa were both big players in the Byzantine Empire, perhaps an early alliance with them would be valuable - as it would likely be their ships that bring Montferrat to Constantinople, if they aren't overcome directly.

Hmm, what about a bit of luck - the Milanese marriage partnered with an alliance with Venice, as after taking out Milan, Genoa isn't a bad avenue to follow. Venice could even be persuaded to assist them, getting that level of control over Mediterranean trade would be tempting - even to the risk of creating a neighbour larger than Milan and Genoa combined, who would then be quite capable of threatening Venice on land and sea with their own fleet.

France would be a great ally for the Montferrat Palaeologids in general - you're right that they'd be helpful against Savoy, but a French alliance with an emerging Italian power that has the pretensions of claiming Constantinople - and thus undermining the HRE? Not only does France secure their SE border, but has an ally against the Germans AND other Mediterranean powers.

Perhaps the beginnings could be to invite any Byzantine refugees or Greeks in general to Montferrat - they'd make a useful demographic as they wouldn't have loyalty to outsiders (within Italy), but also bring their knowledge and texts with them - that could combine with rising Italian banking to start the economic boom they'd need. (Heh, could even go as far as inviting Swedes as a Varangian Guard, but other than a colourful bit of history, I can't see that being significant.). Increased wealth partnered with a Milanese marriage that leads to an inheritance, combined with French guarantees (what to give to France to get this though, long-term agreement to undermine the HRE? That'd be laughed out in the early days - unless it waits till after Milan becomes Montferrat by inheritance) and a Venetian alliance.

Could John II be a good place to introduce these reforms - perhaps instead of marrying the last Queen of Majorca (or avoiding the loss of favour it brought - I have no idea why it caused it, if anyone knows that'd be lovely to know) - he marries a Greek noble who starts bringing over the texts from the Empire - or someone recommended to him by the HRE (either of which avoids Secondotto). He seems to have been at the height of Montferrat power - if that can be maintained, and supplant the Visconti. Montferrat from Savoy to Pavia sounds like a fine start to this Italian hegemony.

- I like finding these weird unspoken talents from history.
 
Meanwhile an aspect I would like to explore is to how to maintain constant ties between Monferrato and Byzantium in 150 years (from the establishment of the Monferrato line to 1453). Maybe interwined marriages between the two branches every two, three generations? Also to let become the marquisate (by the way, need to upgrade to duchy sooner than possible - I wonder through HRE or Pope support? Maybe the latter if Monferrato could become a more vocal supporter for the assistance to the ERE and union of the churches issues?) a vital center of the Byzantine diaspora in early 15th century? Scientists, artisans, mercenaries, and then books, artifacts, etc...

Also, the capital issue. Better try to make Chivasso, the historical capital, an important city, or move towards Asti or Alessandria? Surely, there is the need to found an university. Philosophy specialized can be cool and logical if Greek refuges would settle. Theology I also guess.

Anyway, Alessandria can be more useful for the simple way it can have one of the straightest paths to reach Genova while the Po is easily accessible. Also, just the name. Okay was founded in honour of a pope but still suggestions and recalls can be strong, and can be a not so negligible help to make Monferrato a stronger Italian region. With an university, a rich library with Byzantine contributes maybe in a splendid renaissance building, imagine foreign visitors writing in their descriptions "Alessandria is like her ancient Egyptian counterpart". Late Medieval/Early Modern tourism can be an additional bound.

Lastly, what if Monferrato would specialize in clothes inspired to Byzantine fashion, and proceed with this production after 1453...
 
Meanwhile an aspect I would like to explore is to how to maintain constant ties between Monferrato and Byzantium in 150 years (from the establishment of the Monferrato line to 1453). Maybe interwined marriages between the two branches every two, three generations? Also to let become the marquisate (by the way, need to upgrade to duchy sooner than possible - I wonder through HRE or Pope support? Maybe the latter if Monferrato could become a more vocal supporter for the assistance to the ERE and union of the churches issues?) a vital center of the Byzantine diaspora in early 15th century? Scientists, artisans, mercenaries, and then books, artifacts, etc...

Well, assuming that the PoD is the marriage of John II, we could be looking at the Savoyard Crusade having a larger Montferrat contingent - who take control of Gallipoli and fortify it - sending over families of Italians and Greeks willing to fight. This Montferrat Gallipoli can be the beating heart of the link between the Byzantines and Montferrat. It also prevents the Byzantines from selling it. Plus, it creates a maddening political predicament. As Montferrat is a vassal of the HRE - if Gallipoli is invaded, the HRE is obliged to defend them. This should at least give the Byzantines some breathing room and support - plus, in the civil wars that plagued the ERE at this time, if the Montferrat Palaelogid can be stable, they have a base from which to seize the throne.

Also, the capital issue. Better try to make Chivasso, the historical capital, an important city, or move towards Asti or Alessandria? Surely, there is the need to found an university. Philosophy specialized can be cool and logical if Greek refuges would settle. Theology I also guess.

Anyway, Alessandria can be more useful for the simple way it can have one of the straightest paths to reach Genova while the Po is easily accessible. Also, just the name. Okay was founded in honour of a pope but still suggestions and recalls can be strong, and can be a not so negligible help to make Monferrato a stronger Italian region. With an university, a rich library with Byzantine contributes maybe in a splendid renaissance building, imagine foreign visitors writing in their descriptions "Alessandria is like her ancient Egyptian counterpart". Late Medieval/Early Modern tourism can be an additional bound.

Lastly, what if Monferrato would specialize in clothes inspired to Byzantine fashion, and proceed with this production after 1453...

That would be pretty sweet. Alessandria would be a good capital for Montferrat. I fear if they seize the throne it wouldn't be competition between it and Constantinople, but short of ruling Milan, Alessandria would be a great location to rule an expanded Montferrat. I particularly love your idea of an expanded Alessandria in the Byzantine style, the sandbank near Montariolo that blocks the Fiume Tanaro. A short 200m x 50+m canal through the nearby peninsula would create a great location to fortify and control the Po whilst creating a location to funnel trade to Alessandria through.
 
Well, assuming that the PoD is the marriage of John II, we could be looking at the Savoyard Crusade having a larger Montferrat contingent - who take control of Gallipoli and fortify it - sending over families of Italians and Greeks willing to fight. This Montferrat Gallipoli can be the beating heart of the link between the Byzantines and Montferrat. It also prevents the Byzantines from selling it. Plus, it creates a maddening political predicament. As Montferrat is a vassal of the HRE - if Gallipoli is invaded, the HRE is obliged to defend them. This should at least give the Byzantines some breathing room and support - plus, in the civil wars that plagued the ERE at this time, if the Montferrat Palaelogid can be stable, they have a base from which to seize the throne.



That would be pretty sweet. Alessandria would be a good capital for Montferrat. I fear if they seize the throne it wouldn't be competition between it and Constantinople, but short of ruling Milan, Alessandria would be a great location to rule an expanded Montferrat. I particularly love your idea of an expanded Alessandria in the Byzantine style, the sandbank near Montariolo that blocks the Fiume Tanaro. A short 200m x 50+m canal through the nearby peninsula would create a great location to fortify and control the Po whilst creating a location to funnel trade to Alessandria through.

Sure, if the Paleologi would manage to seize Milan, incontestably would move here, and I think I have found the suitable POD for it!

Guglielmo VIII of Monferrato married Francesca Maria Sforza, daughter of Francesco, which was allied of Guglielmo in anti-Savoia role. OTL didn't have a son, but what if TTL did have one? having in that way a strong claim over Milan. And Guglielmo apparently was well introduced in Milanese political ambients as OTL acting as moderator after the assassination of Galeazzo Sforza between the various factions. Let's insinuate the Sforza dilaniated themselves worse than OTL to allow Guglielmo to step at a certain moment to advance the claim of his TTL son and eventually succeeding (probably at cost of a war with Savoy). Hence we will have a TTL Paleologi-Sforza Dukes of Milan and Marquis of Monferrato well positioned for future exploits in Italy... Attempting first to rebuild the Visconti domains in Emilia and Tuscany, then turning towards Savoy, and who knows best... Someone wants to help me expanding and improving this scenario?
 
Sure, if the Paleologi would manage to seize Milan, incontestably would move here, and I think I have found the suitable POD for it!

Guglielmo VIII of Monferrato married Francesca Maria Sforza, daughter of Francesco, which was allied of Guglielmo in anti-Savoia role. OTL didn't have a son, but what if TTL did have one? having in that way a strong claim over Milan. And Guglielmo apparently was well introduced in Milanese political ambients as OTL acting as moderator after the assassination of Galeazzo Sforza between the various factions. Let's insinuate the Sforza dilaniated themselves worse than OTL to allow Guglielmo to step at a certain moment to advance the claim of his TTL son and eventually succeeding (probably at cost of a war with Savoy). Hence we will have a TTL Paleologi-Sforza Dukes of Milan and Marquis of Monferrato well positioned for future exploits in Italy... Attempting first to rebuild the Visconti domains in Emilia and Tuscany, then turning towards Savoy, and who knows best... Someone wants to help me expanding and improving this scenario?

Very nice - interesting PoD itself. A war between Savoy and Milan-Montferrat would probably prove disasterous in Montferrat proper, as it'd be the most likely battlefield, but it would be vital to turn N.Italy over to M-M. Perhaps M-M can ally with Burgundy and Switzerland? Having a few more Cantons back would probably cheer up the Swiss. Not sure how Burgundy could justify taking over parts of Savoy however.

The problem is after the ottomans have sacked constantinople..

Yeah, inevitably a Palaeologid dynasty with Imperial ambitions would need to prevent his happening. Hence why I'm intrigued by the Savoyard Crusade - With the Ottomans pushed out of Europe properly, it buys the Empire (and Montferrat) time. Time in which Montferrat can engineer a takeover of the Empire.

Although, obvious thought is obvious. The Montferrat Palaeologos are Catholic. So they'd obviously be pro-union. I wonder how the Propontis would look with a Catholic, Orthodox and Sunni power each on it. Messy.

What do you think the priorities would be if this dynasty gets its fortress Gallipoli and N.Italy w/Genoa - would they make a play to take Venice, move south to take over the rest of Italy - get endorsements from the Pope -> Move into Rome?

:eek: - Talk about a weird path for history. Montferrat-Milan takes over N.Italy, holds Gallipoli and then brings the rest of N.Italy into its realm (much politicking involved to prevent Imperial punishment), effectively takes over Rome (gets its own Pope on the Papal Throne?) and ties the Papacy to Montferrat-Milan-Rome in the same way that the Patriarch of Constantinople is tied to the ERE. Suddenly we have both Christian Pentarchal Sees answering to two branches of the same family. If the ERE is taken over through war.. woo boy, the propaganda would be something to see.

I could see M-M making moves into the Balkans as well, or at least the Adriatic coast. Without the Ottomans to invade, M-M-M could be faced with Serbia and Hungary. Eeep.
 
Very nice - interesting PoD itself. A war between Savoy and Milan-Montferrat would probably prove disasterous in Montferrat proper, as it'd be the most likely battlefield, but it would be vital to turn N.Italy over to M-M. Perhaps M-M can ally with Burgundy and Switzerland? Having a few more Cantons back would probably cheer up the Swiss. Not sure how Burgundy could justify taking over parts of Savoy however.



Yeah, inevitably a Palaeologid dynasty with Imperial ambitions would need to prevent his happening. Hence why I'm intrigued by the Savoyard Crusade - With the Ottomans pushed out of Europe properly, it buys the Empire (and Montferrat) time. Time in which Montferrat can engineer a takeover of the Empire.

Although, obvious thought is obvious. The Montferrat Palaeologos are Catholic. So they'd obviously be pro-union. I wonder how the Propontis would look with a Catholic, Orthodox and Sunni power each on it. Messy.

What do you think the priorities would be if this dynasty gets its fortress Gallipoli and N.Italy w/Genoa - would they make a play to take Venice, move south to take over the rest of Italy - get endorsements from the Pope -> Move into Rome?

:eek: - Talk about a weird path for history. Montferrat-Milan takes over N.Italy, holds Gallipoli and then brings the rest of N.Italy into its realm (much politicking involved to prevent Imperial punishment), effectively takes over Rome (gets its own Pope on the Papal Throne?) and ties the Papacy to Montferrat-Milan-Rome in the same way that the Patriarch of Constantinople is tied to the ERE. Suddenly we have both Christian Pentarchal Sees answering to two branches of the same family. If the ERE is taken over through war.. woo boy, the propaganda would be something to see.

I could see M-M making moves into the Balkans as well, or at least the Adriatic coast. Without the Ottomans to invade, M-M-M could be faced with Serbia and Hungary. Eeep.

Maybe Monferrato-Milan can strengthen their claim to the purple by marrying Zoe Palaiologina, who OTL married Ivan III, or one of her nieces - her brother Andreas can marry someone IDK who, and leave only legitimate daughters...
 
Why the Paleologi would attempt to waste forces in reclaim or keep alive the ERE? The AHC is to make them rulers of Italy, not of Byzantium. Still I won't deny they could try to do it through Venetian support but their focus - especially when succeeding in taking Milan - would be an Italian one.

It was mentioned the support of Burgundy... Which means in the 1480's support of Maximilian of Austria. I don't see him working with the Swiss albeit the latter can try to snatch Geneve. But he could support the Paleologi against Savoy and the Sforza? He could have interest to intervene on the basis Savoy was the attacker with an underground agreement (Savoy to Burgundy or vassal of Austria, Turin and Italian lands to Monferrato, Nice to Genoa?) but that wouldn't create a scar between the states of the HRE?
 
Why the Paleologi would attempt to waste forces in reclaim or keep alive the ERE? The AHC is to make them rulers of Italy, not of Byzantium. Still I won't deny they could try to do it through Venetian support but their focus - especially when succeeding in taking Milan - would be an Italian one.

I won't lie, a little bit of a bad habit (Byzantophile will Byzantophile :p ). But a real justification would be ambition.

1) The highest office that this dynasty can lay claim to is Roman Emperor, and if part of their approach is to bring Roman knowledge to N.Italy for their advantage, then taking part in the Savoyard Crusade is a given (if it happens) as it helps protect their chances of becoming Emperors in the future (especially if they are marrying into the lead branch of the house). (Roman Ambitions)

2) That ambition combined with that opportunity ties them into the greater world of Italian politics, which was interested in trade with the Eastern Med/Black Sea. Genoa and Venice were both interested in access, particularly via the Bosporus, whose counterpart is the Dardanelles. Controlling Gallipoli gives Montferrat- which gives them a great source of revenue through trade - and gives them a political tool to use against Venice and/or Genoa -> Access to the Black Sea, bringing them into the top tier of Italian politics. (General Ambition and Italian Politics).

I think those two together would justify Gallipoli as a goal if they took part in the Savoyard Crusade (and justify joining it), if that crusade doesn't happen, then this doesn't matter - but it is a great opportunity for both the Dynasty, and Montferrat in terms of Italian Politicking.

It was mentioned the support of Burgundy... Which means in the 1480's support of Maximilian of Austria. I don't see him working with the Swiss albeit the latter can try to snatch Geneve. But he could support the Paleologi against Savoy and the Sforza? He could have interest to intervene on the basis Savoy was the attacker with an underground agreement (Savoy to Burgundy or vassal of Austria, Turin and Italian lands to Monferrato, Nice to Genoa?) but that wouldn't create a scar between the states of the HRE?

Scar? Whatever do you mean? I'm afraid I don't quite understand. Snatching Genene makes sense for the Swiss in your scenario - but if I was Emperor I'm not sure I'd want to support the growth of a larger Italian polity. All of Italian Savoy to Montferrat, and Milan creates a huge Upper Po based Princedom. I'm not sure an Austrian Emperor would be willing to set that up. If anything I think he'd intervene to force a peace, breaking up whichever of the two refuses to back down.
 
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I won't lie, a little bit of a bad habit (Byzantophile will Byzantophile :p ). But a real justification would be ambition.

1) The highest office that this dynasty can lay claim to is Roman Emperor, and if part of their approach is to bring Roman knowledge to N.Italy for their advantage, then taking part in the Savoyard Crusade is a given (if it happens) as it helps protect their chances of becoming Emperors in the future (especially if they are marrying into the lead branch of the house). (Roman Ambitions)

2) That ambition combined with that opportunity ties them into the greater world of Italian politics, which was interested in trade with the Eastern Med/Black Sea. Genoa and Venice were both interested in access, particularly via the Bosporus, whose counterpart is the Dardanelles. Controlling Gallipoli gives Montferrat- which gives them a great source of revenue through trade - and gives them a political tool to use against Venice and/or Genoa -> Access to the Black Sea, bringing them into the top tier of Italian politics. (General Ambition and Italian Politics).

I think those two together would justify Gallipoli as a goal if they took part in the Savoyard Crusade (and justify joining it), if that crusade doesn't happen, then this does matter - but it is a great opportunity for both the Dynasty, and Montferrat in terms of Italian Politicking.



Scar? Whatever do you mean? I'm afraid I don't quite understand. Snatching Genene makes sense for the Swiss in your scenario - but if I was Emperor I'm not sure I'd want to support the growth of a larger Italian polity. All of Italian Savoy to Montferrat, and Milan creates a huge Upper Po based Princedom. I'm not sure an Austrian Emperor would be willing to set that up. If anything I think he'd intervene to force a peace, breaking up whichever of the two refuses to back down.

Scar in the sense of an Emperor going towards the total smashing of a HRE state like Savoy even if the aggressor. But perhaps a brokered peace would be the best course for him.
 
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