AHC: Make one of these South Asian states modernise

With a POD in the 18th century or later make any of these states "pull a Meiji"?

- Afghanistan: their are generally two points I can see this working. Directly after the death of Ahmad Shah Durrani (maybe a more competent son inherits the empire), or during the 1820s - 1830s.
- Maratha empire - generally anytime before the BEIC became too powerful would be plausible.
- The Sikh Empire - I don't know particularly much about the Sikhs, so you would have to fill this in yourself.

I didn't include the Mughals because by the 18th century they had long decayed.

Bonus points if you can do them all in the same TL:D
 
With a POD in the 18th century or later make any of these states "pull a Meiji"?

- Afghanistan: their are generally two points I can see this working. Directly after the death of Ahmad Shah Durrani (maybe a more competent son inherits the empire), or during the 1820s - 1830s.
- Maratha empire - generally anytime before the BEIC became too powerful would be plausible.
- The Sikh Empire - I don't know particularly much about the Sikhs, so you would have to fill this in yourself.

I didn't include the Mughals because by the 18th century they had long decayed.

Bonus points if you can do them all in the same TL:D
maybe my thread some time ago will help:
AHC: Asian Industrial Revolution
 
Sikh Empire was modernizing before they had a string of massively incompetent rulers. If Ranjit Shah had a competent successor, then the Khalsa Empire could have industrialized by the end of the century.
 
Sikh Empire was modernizing before they had a string of massively incompetent rulers. If Ranjit Shah had a competent successor, then the Khalsa Empire could have industrialized by the end of the century.

The way the Sikh Empire was run IIRC was remarkably similar to how the Afghans ran their empire, and that sort of went against simple 'modernisation'. You need a very strong leader like Ranjit Singh for the Empire to continue on their trajectory.

With the Marathas, you would also need a modernising force that would get their leaders more mobilised; their soldiers were fine, their leaders, much less so.

The Afghans could have continued to be a formidable force if the Durrani Empire continues to dominate northern India and more roundly defeat the Maratha forces.

The Mughals could still modernise and Shah Alam II was actually doing so; if that can continue, you could have a stronger, albeit smaller, Mughal Empire.
 
The way the Sikh Empire was run IIRC was remarkably similar to how the Afghans ran their empire, and that sort of went against simple 'modernisation'. You need a very strong leader like Ranjit Singh for the Empire to continue on their trajectory.

With the Marathas, you would also need a modernising force that would get their leaders more mobilised; their soldiers were fine, their leaders, much less so.

The Afghans could have continued to be a formidable force if the Durrani Empire continues to dominate northern India and more roundly defeat the Maratha forces.

The Mughals could still modernise and Shah Alam II was actually doing so; if that can continue, you could have a stronger, albeit smaller, Mughal Empire.

This is good advice, I ask this because I'm planning a Timeline based on the Durrani, basically a more Balkanised but better off India. Do you think they also have the correct resources for an agricultural/industrial revolution?
 
This is good advice, I ask this because I'm planning a Timeline based on the Durrani, basically a more Balkanised but better off India. Do you think they also have the correct resources for an agricultural/industrial revolution?

An industrial revolution for the Afghans is hard, and personally, I don't think they can do it. However, if the Afghans are able to maintain control of Panjab, they have a strong agricultural base; with Sindh they can develop sea trade. However that means that the whole Afghan mindset needs to change, and it would take a revolution of sorts to actually accomplish that. The Afghans need to treat Panjab as an integral part of their territory, instead of a place they can raid whenever they feel like it.
 
An industrial revolution for the Afghans is hard, and personally, I don't think they can do it. However, if the Afghans are able to maintain control of Panjab, they have a strong agricultural base; with Sindh they can develop sea trade. However that means that the whole Afghan mindset needs to change, and it would take a revolution of sorts to actually accomplish that. The Afghans need to treat Panjab as an integral part of their territory, instead of a place they can raid whenever they feel like it.

By this time, they control both so gaining the territory won't be hard. Their will be two major hard bits, firstly the tribalism but I think I know a way to "neutralise" them, and secondly the Sikhs.
 
Can't comment on the others, but the Afghans maintain far too tribalistic and far too backward a society to accommodate modernization. They're situated in the worst possible position, slap-dash right in the middle of a Eurasian boondocks, and constantly threatened by powers (first the Indo-Iranian states, then the Europeans) who have a vested interest in preserving the techno-intellectual status quo.

An 'Afghan Revolution'? You'd have better odds trying to pull off a Mongol Revolution in the 13th Century!
 
Can't comment on the others, but the Afghans maintain far too tribalistic and far too backward a society to accommodate modernization. They're situated in the worst possible position, slap-dash right in the middle of a Eurasian boondocks, and constantly threatened by powers (first the Indo-Iranian states, then the Europeans) who have a vested interest in preserving the techno-intellectual status quo.

An 'Afghan Revolution'? You'd have better odds trying to pull off a Mongol Revolution in the 13th Century!

In the 18th century Afghanistan was in a much better situation than the other states around it, I admit the tribalism will be a major problem, but Abbas I of Persia also overcame this problem.
 

Neirdak

Banned
For Afghanistan, I would let the fear of the British become real. Dost Mohammad Khan doesn't reject earlier overtures from Russia and their agent Yan Vitkevich in 1837. They expel Alexander Burnes and sign a treaty to open Afghanistan to Russian traders and industrialists. In exchange, the Afghan "central authority" will gain modern Russian weapons, training and a few military "advisors". Lord Auckland will naturally support the Afghan legitimate Shuja government "against foreign interference and factious opposition" as in OTL. The Anglo-Afghan War probably happens, but with a worse defeat for the British. During this war, Dost Mohammad doesn't flee in the wilds of the Hindu Kush, but directly in the Russian Empire's territories and doesn't surrender himself to the British. He won't be considered as a coward.

Later, he allies himself with Sikhs and signs a double offensive and defensive alliance with the Russians and Iranians. He stabilizes his authority in the south with the help of Russian advisors, Iranian mercenaries. and his new russian-military trained army. The Second Anglo-Sikh War occurs in 1848. Unlike OTL, Afghans secretly smuggle russian and iranian-made weapons to the Sikhs. This war becomes a long protracted conflict with a lot of guerrilla. The Indian Rebellion of 1857 will also become longer with Afghan-Russian secret support to the mutineers. This rebellion is bloodier than in OTL, especially in Punjab.

OTL from wiki :
At one stage, faced with the need to send troops to reinforce the besiegers of Delhi, the Commissioner of the Punjab (Sir John Lawrence) suggested handing the coveted prize of Peshawar to Dost Mohammed Khan of Afghanistan in return for a pledge of friendship. The British Agents in Peshawar and the adjacent districts were horrified. Referring to the massacre of a retreating British army in 1840, Herbert Edwardes wrote, "Dost Mahomed would not be a mortal Afghan ... if he did not assume our day to be gone in India and follow after us as an enemy. Europeans cannot retreat – Kabul would come again."[114] In the event Lord Canning insisted on Peshawar being held, and Dost Mohammed, whose relations with Britain had been equivocal for over 20 years, remained neutral.

ITTL, Dost Mohammad accepts this proposition and takes Peshawar (with a large chunk of Pakistan), in exchange of his benevolent help and diplomatic support to stop the rebellions in the Punjabi and Pashtun areas.Dost Mohammad dies on 9 June 1863 of natural causes. Internecine warfare, after his death, is hindered by the presence of Russian advisors and previous agreements between his three sons.

The Second Anglo-Afghan War is fated to happen later and could be a draw, with the help of Russian diplomatic pressure and a better afghan military. Afghan sovereignty over Peshawar and the last Pashtun areas still in British hands is officially recognized by the British. A symbolic Afghan-British double suzerainty over the princely states of Makran, Kharan, Las Bela and Kalat is established by the treaty. Punjab and Sindh are given larger autonomy statutes to act as buffers between Afghanistan and British India.

--> Afghanistan now has control of OTL : Gilgit–Baltistan, Peshawar, Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and the northern part of Balochistan = prior 1893 Afghanistan and a little more.

Dost Mohammad's sons are able to federalize their own supporters after the war. The national sentiment in Afghanistan is higher than in OTL, thanks to defeating the mighty British Empire twice and acquiring a founding father : Dost Mohammad. With a stabilized ethnic territory and officially recognized borders, Afghanistan could now be able to industrialize with the help of Russia. We are in 1893.
 
For Afghanistan, I would let the fear of the British become real. Dost Mohammad Khan doesn't reject earlier overtures from Russia and their agent Yan Vitkevich in 1837. They expel Alexander Burnes and sign a treaty to open Afghanistan to Russian traders and industrialists. In exchange, the Afghan "central authority" will gain modern Russian weapons, training and a few military "advisors". Lord Auckland will naturally support the Afghan legitimate Shuja government "against foreign interference and factious opposition" as in OTL. The Anglo-Afghan War probably happens, but with a worse defeat for the British. During this war, Dost Mohammad doesn't flee in the wilds of the Hindu Kush, but directly in the Russian Empire's territories and doesn't surrender himself to the British. He won't be considered as a coward.

Later, he allies himself with Sikhs and signs a double offensive and defensive alliance with the Russians and Iranians. He stabilizes his authority in the south with the help of Russian advisors, Iranian mercenaries. and his new russian-military trained army. The Second Anglo-Sikh War occurs in 1848. Unlike OTL, Afghans secretly smuggle russian and iranian-made weapons to the Sikhs. This war becomes a long protracted conflict with a lot of guerrilla. The Indian Rebellion of 1857 will also become longer with Afghan-Russian secret support to the mutineers. This rebellion is bloodier than in OTL, especially in Punjab.

OTL from wiki :


ITTL, Dost Mohammad accepts this proposition and takes Peshawar (with a large chunk of Pakistan), in exchange of his benevolent help and diplomatic support to stop the rebellions in the Punjabi and Pashtun areas.Dost Mohammad dies on 9 June 1863 of natural causes. Internecine warfare, after his death, is hindered by the presence of Russian advisors and previous agreements between his three sons.

The Second Anglo-Afghan War is fated to happen later and could be a draw, with the help of Russian diplomatic pressure and a better afghan military. Afghan sovereignty over Peshawar and the last Pashtun areas still in British hands is officially recognized by the British. A symbolic Afghan-British double suzerainty over the princely states of Makran, Kharan, Las Bela and Kalat is established by the treaty. Punjab and Sindh are given larger autonomy statutes to act as buffers between Afghanistan and British India.

--> Afghanistan now has control of OTL : Gilgit–Baltistan, Peshawar, Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and the northern part of Balochistan = prior 1893 Afghanistan and a little more.

Dost Mohammad's sons are able to federalize their own supporters after the war. The national sentiment in Afghanistan is higher than in OTL, thanks to defeating the mighty British Empire twice and acquiring a founding father : Dost Mohammad. With a stabilized ethnic territory and officially recognized borders, Afghanistan could now be able to industrialize with the help of Russia. We are in 1893.

That's a good scenario! Would you mind if I took some of your ideas for a TL:)
 

Neirdak

Banned
That's a good scenario! Would you mind if I took some of your ideas for a TL:)

You can, of course. I liked your "The Age of al-Andalus (Age of the Andulus 2.0)" TL. :)

I am now trying to find how to stay stabilized from 1893 to nowadays, which isn't easy at all. If you look at OTL Afghanistan. It seems that most problems come from fratricidal succession wars, a law forcing royal (ok Amir) brothers to find agreements could help a lot. Of course, having stupid rulers who attack the British Raj (Third Anglo-Afghan War in 1919) doesn't help ...

Can you pm me your TL once finished ?
 
You can, of course :)

I am now trying to find how to stay stabilized from 1893 to nowadays, which isn't easy at all. If you look at OTL Afghanistan. It seems that most problems come from fratricidal succession wars, a law forcing royal (ok Amir) brothers to find agreements could help a lot.

Can you pm me your TL once finished ? :)

Perhaps some a parliament-like council of Tribal elders could be formed and decide?
 
Perhaps some a parliament-like council of Tribal elders could be formed and decide?

Afghanistan has a tradition called the loya jirga, which is an assembly; this could be turned into a Parliament and possibly a smaller version would be in charge of choosing the next king.
 

Neirdak

Banned
Perhaps some a parliament-like council of Tribal elders could be formed and decide?

Afghanistan has a tradition called the loya jirga, which is an assembly; this could be turned into a Parliament and possibly a smaller version would be in charge of choosing the next king.

Indeed, a symbolic Loya Jirga could be in charge of choosing the next king. But the King needs to be careful and sure that the Loya Jirga won't choose somebody else than him. It's why a symbolic choice is better than a real one. ;)

Looking at the current legislative system of Afghanistan, I find two chambers : Mesherano Jirga (House of Elders) and Wolesi Jirga (House of the People) that constitute a National Assembly.

I would just modify them to create a "british style" bicameralism :

- House of Lords -> Mesherano Jirga (tribe elders, province governors, appointed religious figures and meritorious Afghans).
- House of the Commons -> Wolesi Jirga (elected by district councils and accepted by provincial councils).

The Amir will need a private council of chosen counsellors and elected random guys -> executive power.

Interesting to establish a proper rule of law, which will be needed : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jirga But, I don't wish to see Afghan justice system controlled by religious nuts and tribal leaders. The local justice jirga need to be checked by judges. Afghanistan needs a national academy for religious and civic judges, with enough prestige to be accepted.

Of course, I need slow reforms to avoid a Khost-like rebellion. Amānullāh Khān's reforms, in OTL, opened the path to conservative and anti-westernization charismatic "religious" leaders, whose Talebans are the descendants -> see : Habibullāh Kalakāni.
 
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Indeed, a symbolic Loya Jirga could be in charge of choosing the next king. But the King needs to be careful and sure that the Loya Jirga won't choose somebody else than him. It's why a symbolic choice is better than a real one. ;)

Looking at the current legislative system of Afghanistan, I find two chambers : Mesherano Jirga (House of Elders) and Wolesi Jirga (House of the People) that constitute a National Assembly.

I would just modify them to create a "british style" bicameralism :

- House of Lords -> Mesherano Jirga (appointed tribe elders, province governors, religious figures and meritorious Afghans).
- House of the Commons -> Wolesi Jirga (elected by district councils and accepted by provincial councils).

The Amir will need a private council of chosen counsellors and elected random guys -> executive power.

Interesting to establish a proper rule of law, which will be needed :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jirga But, I don't wish to see Afghan justice system controlled by religious nuts and tribal leaders. The local justice jirga need to be checked by judges. Afghanistan needs a national academy for religious and civic judges, with enough prestige to be accepted.

Of course, I need slow reforms to avoid a Khost-like rebellion. Amānullāh Khān's reforms, in OTL, opened the path to conservative and anti-westernization leaders, whose Talebans are the descendants -> see : Habibullāh Kalakāni.

Lets assume the POD is that Timur Shah Durrani whilst governor of Punjab becomes a more competent leader, and become a better Sultan (no civil war, less revolts, etc). How would the idea of a British parliament-type government come to him or one of his direct successors?
Maybe a type of constitution in which it specifies the line of inheritance?
 

Neirdak

Banned
Lets assume the POD is that Timur Shah Durrani whilst governor of Punjab becomes a more competent leader, and become a better Sultan (no civil war, less revolts, etc). How would the idea of a British parliament-type government come to him or one of his direct successors?
Maybe a type of constitution in which it specifies the line of inheritance?

The POD is "Dost Mohammad Khan doesn't reject earlier overtures from Russia and their agent Yan Vitkevich in 1837 (after losing Peshawar = traumatic event needed to create more openness)".

I didn't choose the Durrani dynasty due to its "foreign" origin and foreign lifestyle. They were heavily influenced by Persia and with little support outside their own tribe system. Until Dost Mohammad Khan's ascendancy in 1826, chaos reigned in Afghanistan, which effectively ceased to exist as a single entity, slowly disintegrating into a fragmented collection of small countries or units, which is why I chose Dost Mohammad Khan as "The founding Father of Afghanistan". :)

The idea of a British parliament-type government will arrive after Dost Mohammad Khan (probably two successors later), through the influence of Russian Tsardom and relations with the Nemesis of Afghanistan the British Raj.
 
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The POD is "Dost Mohammad Khan doesn't reject earlier overtures from Russia and their agent Yan Vitkevich in 1837 (after losing Peshawar = traumatic event needed to create more openness)".

I didn't choose the Durrani dynasty due to its "foreign" origin and foreign lifestyle. They were heavily influenced by Persia and with little support outside their own tribe system. Until Dost Mohammad Khan's ascendancy in 1826, chaos reigned in Afghanistan, which effectively ceased to exist as a single entity, slowly disintegrating into a fragmented collection of small countries or units, which is why I chose Dost Mohammad Khan as "The founding Father of Afghanistan". :)

The idea of a British parliament-type government will arrive after Dost Mohammad Khan (probably two successors later), through the influence of Russian Tsardom and relations with the Nemesis of Afghanistan the British Raj.

Alright, we'll use the "emirate era" POD, but I'm not sure the Sikhs would side with the Afghans in the mutiny, since Ahmad Shah Durrani's conquest they themselves had been nemesis.
Also I wonder how there relations with the Ottomans would be, since they are allies with Russia? Would they be able to claim the Caliph title for themselves?
 
The way the Sikh Empire was run IIRC was remarkably similar to how the Afghans ran their empire, and that sort of went against simple 'modernisation'. You need a very strong leader like Ranjit Singh for the Empire to continue on their trajectory.

Is there a chance for the Sikh Empire to become a mercenary state like Nepal, providing troops to the British but not being incorporated into the empire? Maybe this could happen if the Second Sikh War is avoided or ends in a draw. That would give them more time to modernize, and while Nepal didn't do so, the Sikhs had already incorporated many Enlightenment ideas and were much less geographically isolated. I could see a 20th-century modernization after a period during the late 19th century in which the state is consolidated.
 
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