AHC: make Norway resist the german invasion

Your challenge, should you accept it, is to make Norway resist harder to the german invasion during ww2 with a POD after 1934.

For me, the POD is simple.

If Norway was able to mobilize its armed and naval forces severals days before the invasion and every coastal defenses will have been manned and supplied, the german invasion will be impossible.

You add to this earlier mobilisation, the arrests or the neutralisation of Quisling and compagny, or simple orders to the military units "every orders to cease of fire or of armistice must be treated as a illegal orders from traitors or germans agents".
 
IRL the Norwegians did put up a respectable fight, sinking one German warship, damaging a couple more, and causing a few thousand German casualties. They also managed to evacuate the Royal Family and the cabinet to England.

Even if they do put up more of a fight that won't stop the Germans; it will just add to the butcher's bill for both sides. The Germans can bring too much force to bear and the Allies cannot send enough help to matter.
 
Golly, they sank a heavy cruiser and embarrased the entire Germany navy. I think they did pretty well as it was
 
The allies could've held on at Narvik a good while, and denied Swedish ore it's best port at least, but events in France forced them to drop that plan.
 
Tusen takk

Thanks guys. It's nice to get such good response on my first thread!

I was curious about a scenario where the allies are able to challenge the germans of control over the southern/middle part of the country.
Maybe I should check out the search function ;)

EDIT: challenge the germans of control over the southern/middle part of the country through a longer period, maybe a year or two
 
Going from memory didn't the Norwegians start to mobilise, reconsider and stop, and then finally start it up again but issue the call up by post so that the German invasion had already started before it could be effectively implemented? The two easiest changes that I can think of is that the Norwegian government issues the orders for full mobilisation as soon as the head of the military asks for it doing it via radio whilst loudly and publically stating that it's a purely defensive action to defend against Allied or Nazi pressure, and that they also issues orders to the coastal forts and artillery to assume that any non-Norwegian ships trying to enter their waters are hostile and should be sunk after the first warning.
 
Given the fact that in 1940 Norway was in fact living under the potential threat of invasion by Britain as well as Germany, it does seem to be a massive mistake if they did not mobilize. Given the terrain, the initial German misapprehension that their invasion might be given only token resistance, and the ineptitude of the German navy, it is interesting to speculate what a more successful resistance could have gained. Is it possible that anti-Nazi Norwegians and the British might have managed to maintain a foothold in the Narvik areas even after the fall of France? How would such a foothold have altered the situation in Finland, and the tacitly pro-Axis trade stance of Sweden? Might Germany have occupied Sweden?
 
Your challenge, should you accept it, is to make Norway resist harder to the german invasion during ww2 with a POD after 1934.


I started a TL some time ago, with the POD that the navigator of a Sunderland flying boat tells a joke at the most inopportune moment, causing his colleagues to fail to spot a part of the German fleet, with interesting butterflies.


I'm tempted to reboot it if you guys think this has potential.


April 8

Gruppe 1, with Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and 10 destroyers are heading north towards Narvik, carrying 2000 troops of the 3 Mountain Division. North of their position is the battlecruiser Renown and her escorts, sailing south to intercept.

Further south lies a British group of 2 cruisers and 15 destroyers, and, separated from these, the destroyer Glowworm, originally part of Renown's escort, but which had been unable to keep up.

South still is Gruppe 2, with Admiral Hipper and 4 destroyers, carrying 1700 mountain troops bound for Trondheim, with the British Home Fleet in hot pursuit.


Shortly after dawn on the 8th, the Glowworm encounters 2 German destroyers and then the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper. Unable to escape, she ineffectually launches all torpedoes at the German ship before ramming her, causing heavy damage. The Glowworm itself is sunk by Hippers guns.

Forbes orders the Renown to head south to Glowworms last known position, putting it on a collision course with Gruppe 1

POD - April 8, 14.00 hours

A British Sunderland flying boat is on a recon mission in the North Sea in conditions of heavy rain. With the crew distracted by a joke told by the navigator, they fail to spot the German fleet heading for Trondheim and Narvik through the narrow opening in the clouds


Admiral Forbes does not conclude that the Germans are trying to break out and all ships maintain course.

The first to make contact are Gruppe 2 and the British force of 2 cruisers and 15 destroyers. 1 German destroyer is damaged and Gruppe 2 heads south to evade destruction. The damaged destroyer however fails to keep up and is sunk. Heading south, they encounter the Home fleet. The damaged Admiral Hipper and her 3 destroyers are all sent to the bottom.


To the north, the Renown clashes with the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst. Gneisenau's fir-control systems are damaged and 1 German destroyer is sunk with the British also loosing 1 destroyer. Gruppe 1 attempts to head north-west, but the Renown successfully follows them.

Hours later, Gruppe 2 is intercepted by the british cruiser and destroyer group, now also accompanied by the Repulse. With the Germans sandwiched between the two fleets, they loose the Gneisenau and two further destroyers, with the rest scattering westward.

The Norwegian cabinet meets to discuss the situation (5 hours earlier than OTL). During the meeting, the decision is initially taken to enact partial mobilization. However, when asked how this would take place, defence minister Birtger Ljungberg explains that it would be carried out according to regulations in secret and by post. With this information, the cabinet decides to issue and immediate full mobilization, since it would be the only option that could be carried out in time, much to Ljungbers opposition.

April 9

  • German forces begin to occupy Denmark
  • With the general alarm raised, Norwegian forces manage to repel the German Fallschirmjager forces landing at the airbase at Sola near Stavanger. Instrumental to this was the only finished concrete bunker with a machine gun, which scored dozens of kills, as well as covering fire from Norwegian infantry, who managed to prevent one daring German paratrooper from hurdling a grenade into the bunker. Despite Me109 cover, the paratroopers soon found themselves in an untenable position and surrendered.
  • Scharnhorst and 5 destroyers switch course and head for Bergen, but encounter the remainder of the Home fleet, also sailing south. 1 German destroyer is sunk, but the Scharnhorst escapes any damage
  • With the British being just a few miles away, Gruppe 3 abandon their position west of Bergen and sail south hours before their attack on the harbor was to be launched
  • German transport Roda sunk by the Norwegian destroyer Sleipner off Stavanger

  • Blucher sunk by the Oscarsborg Fortress at 5:30 AM, with heavy loss of life. Deutschland damaged.
  • Luftwaffe attacks the Oscarsborg Fortress
  • Gruppe 5 unloads its troops in Sonsbukten, 19 km south of Oscarsborg
  • At 9.45, paratroopers still battle Norwegian infantry in the Oslo airport, although by now they are gaining the upper hand, with the Norwegians being mostly freshly mobilized recruits
  • Luftwaffe fails to spot the RN, now in a different position
  • At Kristiansand, coastal batteries damage the Karlsruhe and twice repulse the landing attempts by 10 AM (OTL Gruppe 4 finally managed to force a landing at 11 AM, only here it doesn't get the chance)
With the landing forces bound for Narvik and Trondheim almost totally destroyed, the one for Bergen forced to abandon and the ones at Kristiansand and Oslo apparently unable to make any headway, Hitler feared the worst, namely that should the Wehrmacht be seen as having lost in Norway, morale could suffer strong enough to prevent a successful invasion of France. If, however, it was all seen as a series of small naval battles, then the impact would be minimal. Plus, once France fell, victory would be his. No need to risk that with a futile attempt to take small towns and fjords he’d never heard about. So, at the last moment, Hitler cancels the invasion. The paratroopers at Oslo airport, still engaged in fighting, are ordered south to rendezvous with the forces there and then sail back to Germany, or, failing to do that, head for Sweden. Everyone else receives a general order to retreat back to base.
 
If Norway mobilized and started yelling at the Brits and the Germans the Germans wouldn't invade. The whole point was to keep the brits out. The brits may still invade but that would put Norway in the Axis camp and set a different tone for the war as the Brits would be the first to invade a neutral country and not Germany. Plus Norway may turn into a meat grinder for the Brits and chew up the BEF before France. Let the butterflies commence flapping...
 

BlondieBC

Banned
If Norway mobilized and started yelling at the Brits and the Germans the Germans wouldn't invade. The whole point was to keep the brits out. The brits may still invade but that would put Norway in the Axis camp and set a different tone for the war as the Brits would be the first to invade a neutral country and not Germany. Plus Norway may turn into a meat grinder for the Brits and chew up the BEF before France. Let the butterflies commence flapping...

Agreed, a strong Norway response to British pressure makes Hitler a lot less likely to invade, and a British invasion of Norway makes FDR life a lot harder. He barely got passed some of the pre-war army/navy appropriation bills. If Britain attacks Norway, and attacks the French Fleet at Oran, it might be enough to keep the USA out of the war entirely.

In this situation, all major powers in Europe have some innocent blood on their hands.
 
Years and years ago, Jon Ivars over at SHWI posted 'Ah the Glowworms, Let's Industrialise Norway' which did just such a thing. But it was never finished which was a great shame.
 
I am assuming that Norway fight off the German invasion and British help is welcomed. If there is an allied Norway could there have been an invasion of Denmark? Could the allies have supplied the Polish freedom fighters?
 
If we assume for a moment that Norway was able to hold out either long enough for the British to send suport and bring Norway in on the Allied side or with a larger PoD see the Germans off by themselves would that be a net gain, loss or something in the middle for the Allies? On the one hand it helps disrupt iron ore shipments over the winter months and denies the country as a base for the Kriegsmarine, on the other it means that the Germans now don't have the garrison the place so they have an extra 300,000 or so troops free to be used elsewhere.
 

Cook

Banned
They also managed to evacuate the Royal Family and the cabinet to England.
More importantly for the war, almost the entire Norwegian Merchant Marine sailed to England. This was one of the largest fleets in the world and formed a very large proportion of the shipping carrying supplies in convoys during the Battle of the Atlantic. Without those ships the convoy war may well have been lost.
 
Going from memory didn't the Norwegians start to mobilise, reconsider and stop, and then finally start it up again but issue the call up by post so that the German invasion had already started before it could be effectively implemented? The two easiest changes that I can think of is that the Norwegian government issues the orders for full mobilisation as soon as the head of the military asks for it doing it via radio whilst loudly and publically stating that it's a purely defensive action to defend against Allied or Nazi pressure, and that they also issues orders to the coastal forts and artillery to assume that any non-Norwegian ships trying to enter their waters are hostile and should be sunk after the first warning.
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[/FONT] The Norwegian govt. did mobilize. But since the govt at that time was traitors, cowards and scum of the worst kind. They thought more of the fact that they had to get "on the right side" (in the words of the PM at that time). So they mobilized by mail, ordering the soldiers to meet at their designated military camp in 3 weeks. No this is not a joke!

The govt didn’t know who was invading. Both the Germans and the British were on their way to Norway with troop-transports, but the British turned when they were halfway across the Northsea.
Churchill and Hitler had decided (rightfully) after the so-called "Altmark incident" that Norway was not going to uphold her obligations as a neutral state. So Norway was open for foreign invasion. It was just a question of who got there first.

Anyway the best way to get the Norwegians to put up a fight is to get rid of the govt. They were elected for the 1936-1939. Period. But once they were in power they changed the length of the period. So that they could sit for 4years instead of 3. Which of course is illegal under Norwegian law. That should not have been implemented until the next election.
So give the Norwegians a govt. with backbone willing to preserve her neutrality and Norway might even stay out of the war altogether, or they would have mobilized after the "Altmark incident".


Remember Carl Gustav Fleischer? The first general to get a land victory against the Germans in WWII. He was driven to suicide by the Norwegian govt.

(translate this page if you want to know more of the Fleischer case - http://www.aftenposten.no/fakta/verdenskrig/article533547.ece )

I can go on and on about how the govt in 19140 left the Norwegians in the lurch, and how they betrayed the wartime sailors, how they made new laws with retroactive effects witch they did not let people back home in Norway know about before they put them on trial in 1945-48. How they even made a law (Lex Nygaardsvold) that gave all Norwegians govt officials in London a divorce (if they wanted, 60x did) without telling their wives back in Norway anything about it until after the war. It was such nice ladies in London one must remember. It would have been nice standing on the docks with your children waiting for dad to come home after 5years, just to find out that he has gotten a new wife. And the cases go on and on.....

Back to the subject, get a new election in 1939 as it should have been, get the conservatives in power, and let them have C.J. Hambro as their PM. He was jewish, he would have mobilized a lot faster.

The Norwegian navy at that time was joke, but the merchant fleet, was the world second greatest in the world in tonnage. The coastal fortifications were ok. The govt spending of military was close to nil (thank you for that socialists). But the will to fight was there.
When the war ended Norway had 28.000 men in English or American uniforms, and 6000 in German. (15.000 volunteered for service, Himmler accepted 6000). 13.000 men under arms in Sweden - the so-called "police force", waiting for the English orders to come home.

 
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