AHC Make modern Russia have the same territory as the Soviet union.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Dominic Harvey, Sep 21, 2019.

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  1. Dominic Harvey Well-Known Member

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    With a POD no earlier than 1950 make the Russian federation have all of the territory it lost with the collapse of the Soviet union.

    Possible?
     
  2. Onkel Willie Kaiser

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    The closest thing I can think of is the New Union Treaty, which would in return require the August Coup not to happen as that was what killed the treaty and led to the dissolution of the USSR.
     
  3. David T Well-Known Member

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    Sometime in 1950-3 Stalin decides that his original idea in the early 1920's--that all Soviet Republics should enter the RSFSR as "autonomous republics" so that Ukraine should have the same status as Bashkiria or Yakutia--should now be implemented. After all, there is no longer a Lenin around to block the idea.
     
  4. oshron Emperor of Rplegacy

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    Putin's trying as hard as he can, guys, you need to give it time :p
     
  5. Falk Well-Known Member

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    One of the problems with this idea is that the citizens of the more developed Slavic dominated SSRs were eager to shed the central asian republics. I don't have a source for this but that is my gut feeling.
     
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  6. Kapellan23 Kicked Banned

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    “And when, after the fall of the Bolsheviks, world propaganda throws the slogan:“ Peoples of the former Russia, dismember yourself! ”- then two possibilities will open: either the Russian national dictatorship will rise within Russia, which will take the“ reins of government ”into its strong hands and extinguish this a disastrous slogan will lead Russia to unity, stopping any and all separatist movements in the country; or such a dictatorship will not work out and the country will begin an unimaginable chaos of movement, return, revenge, pogroms, the collapse of transport, unemployment It’s, hunger, cold and anarchy, then Russia will be seized by anarchy and will betray itself to its national, military, political and religious enemies ... Years of national forgetfulness, subsidence, reassurance, enlightenment, awareness, restoration of elementary legal awareness, return to private will pass property, to the principles of honor and honesty, to personal responsibility and loyalty, to self-esteem, to integrity and independent thought - before the Russian people will be able to make meaningful or corruptly political elections. Until then, it can only be led by a national, patriotic, by no means totalitarian, but authoritarian - educating and reviving - dictatorship ... After the Bolsheviks, Russia can be saved - either by the greatest state discipline of the Russian people or national-state-educating dictatorship ... Only a strict authoritarian (by no means totalitarian!) Regime can save the country ... Under these conditions, the national dictatorship will become a direct salvation, and the elections will either be completely impracticable, or they will turn out to be imaginary, iktsiey devoid of lawmaking authority. "


    Ivan Ilyin, Our Tasks, 1950.
     
  7. DracoLazarus Ouroborus Cataphractus

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    Considering how eager the Balts were to get out, I'd put it down as unlikely.
     
  8. Modern Imperialism Well-Known Member

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    You aren’t wrong especially if the US keeps getting more friendly with them and less so with the EU but that’s more for a future pod instead of a alternative history one
     
  9. Kapellan23 Kicked Banned

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    Putin is a Soviet man defending the criminal Leninist-Stalinist borders.
     
  10. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    I wonder how this would affect things when communism falls.
     
  11. David T Well-Known Member

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    Very likely it will be reversed by Khrushchev, anyway.
     
  12. Resurgam Teacher and Writer of Things

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    As someone said above, you need radically different Baltic states. And for that to happen, we need a POD much earlier than 1950.
     
  13. trurle bored blue collar worker

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    Well, if you can permit some of Russian territories to be temporarily occupied by foreign powers, when the OTL Russia is already have the territory of former Soviet Union.. at least in the minds of Russian fervent nationalists.
     
  14. David T Well-Known Member

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    But the Union of Sovereign States would still not be the same thing as a larger Russia--the Russian Federation would only be one of its constituent states.
     
  15. jerseyguy Well-Known Member

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    The after-1950 condition makes this pretty difficult. The territorial gains and casualties from WW2 probably decreased the USSR's longevity and stability on balance. Nationalism would be weaker in a smaller Ukrainian SSR that doesn't include Galicia. Giving Poland its own version of the Troubles could make Soviet rule look more attractive in comparison. Also, the Baltic States will probably need to become Russian or East Slavic majority if they're going to voluntarily remain within the Union.

    If the USSR implemented a two-child policy for non-Russian nationalities and natalist policies for Russians, the country would have a higher chance of surviving. The central government would have to effectively abolish the SSR system by changing boundaries to keep SSRs from getting too homogenous, or mandating extensive population transfers. Stalin did this on a small scale OTL with the Tatars, Volga Germans, Poles, and Koreans, but Ukrainians and Belarusians are too numerous to deport them all to Kazakhstan + Siberia and settle Russians in their place.

    Ethnic differences in fertility were a major problem for the USSR in its last decade or so. The Russian share of the population was decreasing in the post war years, and the Union as a whole would have become Russian-minority if it was still around in the mid-90s. This made it much harder for the central government to assert control over the non-Russian SSRs and keep nationalists and separatists under control. Muslim-majority ethnic groups were responsible for a disproportionate share of population growth, but the Union's traditionally Muslim ethnic groups were less likely than East Slavs to migrate to other republics of the union for economic reasons. This means that labor shortages were set to become a growing problem for much of the USSR. There was net Russian migration to the European SSRs, but this provoked a nationalist backlash and support for migration restrictions in places like the Baltic States. I'm getting this demographic data from Growth and Diversity of the Population of the Soviet Union.
     
  16. Kapellan23 Kicked Banned

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    It is a myth. After the death of Lenin, Stalin continued the same policy.

    In 1924, the BSSR transferred part of the Vitebsk (from the city of Vitebsk), part of the Smolensk provinces (from the city of Orsha), as well as the Kalininsky, Mogilev and Rogachev counties of the Gomel province to the Belorussian SSR. In the same year, the Bukhara NSR and the Khorezm NSR were separated from the RSFSR, which were transformed into the Bukhara SSR and the Khorezm SSR.


    Stalin and Ukraine did not offend, as the following territories were separated from the RSFSR: the territories of the former Putivl uyezd, Krenichansky volost of the Greyvoron uyezd and two incomplete volosts of the Greyvoron and Belgorod districts, a little later in 1926 the Semenov volost of the Novozybkovsky uyezd of Gomelsky, Troitskaya Troitskaya and Urytsky uyezd were transferred. the province.


    But the main blow to the territorial integrity of the country was dealt in the 30s. Thanks to the Stalinist constitution, the Kazak Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was removed from the RSFSR and transformed into the Kazakh SSR, the same thing happened with the Kyrgyz Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, which became the Kyrgyz SSR. On March 31, 1940, the Karelian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was removed from the RSFSR with the formation of the Karelian-Finnish SSR (all other territories transferred to the Soviet Union after the Winter War were transferred to it as well). After the Karachayev Autonomous Region was liquidated on March 12, 1943, its southern part was transferred to the Georgian SSR.

    More than half of present-day Central Asia has been developed and settled by Russians; these were Russian provinces. A particularly striking example is Kazakhstan, which exists almost entirely on Russian South Siberian lands, in which Kazakhs almost did not live in the Kazakh steppes, but Russians (the capital of Kazakhstan is Astana, the old Russian city of Akmolinsk with 100% of the Russian population, now there are about 15% of Russians and continues to decline).


    And you can go on about anti-Russian politics in the USSR for a long time - and about the greater part of Chechnya, which are Russian Cossack lands, and about the good half of Estonia and Narva, and about national autonomies sucked from a finger (one Yakutia, the size of Western Europe built around a micro -ethnos, which even now does not reach 500,000 people, and at the time of the formation of the republic, and in general was a miserable handful, which is worth it; and I generally am silent about comic Jewish autonomy), and about Ukraine and Belarus torn from the body of the Russian people, etc.


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  17. jerseyguy Well-Known Member

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    That motivation is certainly possible, the European SSRs were more likely to oppose keeping the USSR than Central Asians in the 1991 referendum on keeping the USSR.
     
  18. Kapellan23 Kicked Banned

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    If we take the countdown from the Second World War, then only the early death of Stalin can help here, and if the Leningrad affair does not take place.

    At the same time, the KGB and the Communist Party of the RSFSR will be created. Also korenizatsiya in the USSR should be stopped.


     
  19. David T Well-Known Member

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    I don't quite get by what you mean by "It is a myth." I am not denying that Stalin went along with Lenin's proposal for a USSR instead of an expanded RSFSR and continued it after Lenin's death. But the OP asks "With a POD no earlier than 1950 make the Russian federation have all of the territory it lost with the collapse of the Soviet union" and the (relatively) most plausible way I can think of doing this is to have Stalin after 1950 change his mind and revert to his "autonomization" scheme of the early 1920's which had been vetoed by Lenin. I agree that Stalin is not very likely to do so, but it's the least implausible scenario I could think of--his successors are even less likely to do this.
     
  20. Kapellan23 Kicked Banned

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    Stalin did all this after the death of Lenin. Nobody prevented him from returning to the “plan of autonomization”, but he did not and went even further. Even under the living Lenin, Stalin led the korenizatsiya.

    Under him and his successors, the probability of creating a single republic of the RSFSR is negative.

    It seems to me a more realistic option for the early death of Stalin with the creation of the Communist Party of the RSFSR and the abolition of korenizatsiya.