AHC: Make Luzon majorly Ilocano Speaking

The Challenge is if you accept it is make Luzon Ilocano speaking at least have it as the Linguafranca and make NCR and Central Luzon majorly Ilocano speaking except for OTL Pampanga, bonus points if you have a dominant minority of Ilocano speakers in Calabazon, Mindoro, Bicolandia and also if it is the National Language of the Philippines.
 
The Challenge is if you accept it is make Luzon Ilocano speaking at least have it as the Linguafranca and make NCR and Central Luzon majorly Ilocano speaking except for OTL Pampanga, bonus points if you have a dominant minority of Ilocano speakers in Calabazon, Mindoro, Bicolandia and also if it is the National Language of the Philippines.

make the Spaniards hit the north first.

Vigan as the first main port.

linguistic AHCs like this are proto-history, tho'. pretty difficult to change it without butterflying practically everything that makes our country what it is.
 
make the Spaniards hit the north first.

Vigan as the first main port.

linguistic AHCs like this are proto-history, tho'. pretty difficult to change it without butterflying practically everything that makes our country what it is.

I have to disagree with your assessment.

There is no reason not to transfer to Manila. The Spanish transferred from Visayas to Manila in OTL.

Strategic reasons - highly defensible port. Even in WW2, the Japanese had to take many places just to get to Manila. This is even more defensible at the time when Ship of the Lines were a thing.

Then, you got the economic reasons due to the China trade due to Manila having been the main trade port since pre Hispanic times.

However, the best way to make Ilocanos have a chance to dominate is for the British to win the Seven years war in Philippines. That would make Diego Silang the local leader under British protection. We know the rest of the islands were loyal to Spain.

I dont know the viability of the British putting more resources in the Philippines knowing that the British need more resources than what they had in OTL to win in the islands.
 
I have to disagree with your assessment.

There is no reason not to transfer to Manila. The Spanish transferred from Visayas to Manila in OTL.

Strategic reasons - highly defensible port. Even in WW2, the Japanese had to take many places just to get to Manila. This is even more defensible at the time when Ship of the Lines were a thing.

Then, you got the economic reasons due to the China trade due to Manila having been the main trade port since pre Hispanic times.

However, the best way to make Ilocanos have a chance to dominate is for the British to win the Seven years war in Philippines. That would make Diego Silang the local leader under British protection. We know the rest of the islands were loyal to Spain.

I dont know the viability of the British putting more resources in the Philippines knowing that the British need more resources than what they had in OTL to win in the islands.

The people of Luzon were not fond of the Spanish, it was the Macabebe scouts and the Macabebeans who maintained the Spanish rule there, the problem is that no one has defeated them yet.
 
The people of Luzon were not fond of the Spanish, it was the Macabebe scouts and the Macabebeans who maintained the Spanish rule there, the problem is that no one has defeated them yet.

Compared to the british. The Spanish did recruit troops from the locals when the british took Manila and any reinforcements from Americas or Spain was an impossibility.

The only local Luzon force that challenged the Spanish at this time was Diego Silang's which was Ilocano as per your OP requirements. The most of the Indios and the Insulares were not yet as disgruntled as 19th century OTL which would place them in the loyalist category. Otherwise, if the majority arent loyal, the locals can easily overwhelm the few loyal Spanish soldiers much like in OTL 1898.
 
Compared to the british. The Spanish did recruit troops from the locals when the british took Manila and any reinforcements from Americas or Spain was an impossibility.

The only local Luzon force that challenged the Spanish at this time was Diego Silang's which was Ilocano as per your OP requirements. The most of the Indios and the Insulares were not yet as disgruntled as 19th century OTL which would place them in the loyalist category. Otherwise, if the majority arent loyal, the locals can easily overwhelm the few loyal Spanish soldiers much like in OTL 1898.

They were basically afraid because the Macabebe scouts and the Spanish had already massacred alot of people in the revolts in Luzon and one of these bloody revolts were the Irraya and Maniago-Malong revolts which were defeated by the Macabebe Scouts.

If Diego Silang wants to get the sympathy of the people of Luzon, he has to prove that he can defeat the Spanish-Macabebe forces like the Katipuneros did in OTL.
 
They were basically afraid because the Macabebe scouts and the Spanish had already massacred alot of people in the revolts in Luzon and one of these bloody revolts were the Irraya and Maniago-Malong revolts which were defeated by the Macabebe Scouts.

If Diego Silang wants to get the sympathy of the people of Luzon, he has to prove that he can defeat the Spanish-Macabebe forces like the Katipuneros did in OTL.

I believe during the time of seven years war, there is nothing to be afraid of the Spanish. The British were right at the door presenting itself. Besides, the locally raised army were natives volunteers. If the majority were disloyal as you assume at this time, non of the natives would have join or there would be more people joining the British.

Nor this has anything to do with Macabebe Scouts nor the any other revolt 100 years before my suggestion. 1898 when Philippines won vs Spain was not Katipunan.

The timeline I suggested was Seven years war, far from any revolts you mentioned, which presented an alternative to Spain which is Britain, with an ilocano Rebellion poised to become a British ally, which would give a possibility of Ilocano dominance in Luzon in case of a British win. Which is conditional hinged on British logistic realities.
 
I have to disagree with your assessment.

There is no reason not to transfer to Manila. The Spanish transferred from Visayas to Manila in OTL.

Strategic reasons - highly defensible port. Even in WW2, the Japanese had to take many places just to get to Manila. This is even more defensible at the time when Ship of the Lines were a thing.

Then, you got the economic reasons due to the China trade due to Manila having been the main trade port since pre Hispanic times.

However, the best way to make Ilocanos have a chance to dominate is for the British to win the Seven years war in Philippines. That would make Diego Silang the local leader under British protection. We know the rest of the islands were loyal to Spain.

I dont know the viability of the British putting more resources in the Philippines knowing that the British need more resources than what they had in OTL to win in the islands.

true. Manila is that important, unfortunately. even with Vigan being closer to China.

tho' when you look at the map, Cebuano is pretty dominant. that might be skewed by the early presidents building haciendas there, but still. south of Luzon is Bisaya country. and north of the Tagalog heartland, Ilocano dominates IOTL already.

and yes, Diego Silang would make a good PoD. he aimed to rule an independent Ilocano state, or at least to get Ilocanos more influence.

which is the problem with all these revolts before 1823. they're all parochial revolts jockeying for the independence and influence of their local area.

and the Tagalogs long ago won that contest.
 
I believe during the time of seven years war, there is nothing to be afraid of the Spanish. The British were right at the door presenting itself. Besides, the locally raised army were natives volunteers. If the majority were disloyal as you assume at this time, non of the natives would have join or there would be more people joining the British.

Nor this has anything to do with Macabebe Scouts nor the any other revolt 100 years before my suggestion. 1898 when Philippines won vs Spain was not Katipunan.

The timeline I suggested was Seven years war, far from any revolts you mentioned, which presented an alternative to Spain which is Britain, with an ilocano Rebellion poised to become a British ally, which would give a possibility of Ilocano dominance in Luzon in case of a British win. Which is conditional hinged on British logistic realities.

Aside from the fear the people were already quite contented of the setup made by the Spanish and the people were afraid of change as well, the POD of an Ilocano dominance would be 100-200 years before that POD, the last POD that a linguistic change can happen is during the Malong-Maniago revolt which caused a stain in the prestige of the Kapampangan language that the people don't want to associate with the Macabebe scouts.
 
true. Manila is that important, unfortunately. even with Vigan being closer to China.

tho' when you look at the map, Cebuano is pretty dominant. that might be skewed by the early presidents building haciendas there, but still. south of Luzon is Bisaya country. and north of the Tagalog heartland, Ilocano dominates IOTL already.

and yes, Diego Silang would make a good PoD. he aimed to rule an independent Ilocano state, or at least to get Ilocanos more influence.

which is the problem with all these revolts before 1823. they're all parochial revolts jockeying for the independence and influence of their local area.

and the Tagalogs long ago won that contest.

Not Cebuano only we also have Hilagaynon/Illonggo which also competes with Cebuano.

I think we could also make the Ilocanos migrate to Central Luzon assimilating the natives and prevent the Tagalogs from migrating and assimilating the natives of Central Luzon.
 
Aside from the fear the people were already quite contented of the setup made by the Spanish and the people were afraid of change as well, the POD of an Ilocano dominance would be 100-200 years before that POD, the last POD that a linguistic change can happen is during the Malong-Maniago revolt which caused a stain in the prestige of the Kapampangan language that the people don't want to associate with the Macabebe scouts.

Those revolts have no chance to win vs Spain.

Fighting Spain nation requires logistics. Neither of which those revolts can provide sufficient logistics to win vs Spain. This means advance weaponry, modern techniques, modern educated leaders, etc.

Not Cebuano only we also have Hilagaynon/Illonggo which also competes with Cebuano.

I think we could also make the Ilocanos migrate to Central Luzon assimilating the natives and prevent the Tagalogs from migrating and assimilating the natives of Central Luzon.

In order for you to stop migration and/or, you need to stop the Spanish or any great power. Non of your stories have been proven possible to stop the Spanish or any great power.

Eventually that power will be based on Manila. Once that happens it merely changes Spain into another power based in Manila. Even the Brunei based themselves in Manila, not in Pampanga or Vigan in prehispanic times.
 
Those revolts have no chance to win vs Spain.

Fighting Spain nation requires logistics. Neither of which those revolts can provide sufficient logistics to win vs Spain. This means advance weaponry, modern techniques, modern educated leaders, etc.



In order for you to stop migration and/or, you need to stop the Spanish or any great power. Non of your stories have been proven possible to stop the Spanish or any great power.

Eventually that power will be based on Manila. Once that happens it merely changes Spain into another power based in Manila. Even the Brunei based themselves in Manila, not in Pampanga or Vigan in prehispanic times.

Logistics and Unity, the Kingdom of Tondo already had weapons like GunPowder, their problem is that the people of Luzon rarely live inland which was the cause why they never implemented the wheel, most of them live beside rivers, lakes or nearby the sea that is why the ethnonyms Ibanag and Kapampangan basically mean river dwellers.

The Wheel and Inland dwellers is what Luzon needs in order to be in the same level as its contemporaries such as Aceh and Brunei.

We could stop migration by giving the people in the Traditional Tagalog speaking provinces a famine or war that kills alot of people in the Traditional Tagalog Provinces which causes the Spanish to attract Ilocano immigrants instead to Central Luzon.
 
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Logistics and Unity, the Kingdom of Tondo already had weapons like GunPowder, their problem is that the people of Luzon rarely live inland which was the cause why they never implemented the wheel, most of them live beside rivers, lakes or nearby the sea that is why the ethnonyms Ibanag and Kapampangan basically mean river dwellers.

The Wheel and Inland dwellers is what Luzon needs in order to be in the same level as its contemporaries such as Aceh and Brunei.

You are making a Yoyo and confusing everyone with your prehispanic, 1898, 1600 timeframe mention. We are talking about Hispanic times wherein the locals dont have all the necessary logistics to beat the Spanish. Having Gunpoweder doesnt mean you are in parity with the west. Even Cannon making has different level of technology. As well the Spanish having different level of techs they were in the Philippines.

We could stop migration by giving the people in the Traditional Tagalog speaking provinces a famine or war that kills alot of people in the Traditional Tagalog Provinces which causes the Spanish to attract Ilocano immigrants instead to Central Luzon.

Tell your story so we can say it if is plausible/possible or not.

You cannot force a story simply because you want the story to happen.
 
You are making a Yoyo and confusing everyone with your prehispanic, 1898, 1600 timeframe mention. We are talking about Hispanic times wherein the locals dont have all the necessary logistics to beat the Spanish. Having Gunpoweder doesnt mean you are in parity with the west. Even Cannon making has different level of technology. As well the Spanish having different level of techs they were in the Philippines.



Tell your story so we can say it if is plausible/possible or not.

You cannot force a story simply because you want the story to happen.

This is an AHC, I am the one asking for a scenario, I just gave some outlines, for the technology the locals did not have the tech because the elites sided with the Spanish.
 
This is an AHC, I am the one asking for a scenario, I just gave some outlines, for the technology the locals did not have the tech because the elites sided with the Spanish.

Then tell your story wherein Manila gets to have famine while a couple kms away the pampanga dont. Make sure those are believeable because it is hard to believe that one gets famine and the others doesnt where there are in the same island and a few kms away. That is why I said you are forcing stuff.

I provided you with a scenario wherein locals get logistics. You are forcing revolts wherein logistical nor political realities cannot beat Spain such as the Maniago revolt. Because if you make it winnable during that time period of Maniago revolt, it wont be a Maniago revolt or called such a revolt at all. Nor will it be lead by Maniago to become successful vs Spain.
 
Then tell your story wherein Manila gets to have famine while a couple kms away the pampanga dont. Make sure those are believeable because it is hard to believe that one gets famine and the others doesnt where there are in the same island and a few kms away. That is why I said you are forcing stuff.

I provided you with a scenario wherein locals get logistics. You are forcing revolts wherein logistical nor political realities cannot beat Spain such as the Maniago revolt. Because if you make it winnable during that time period of Maniago revolt, it wont be a Maniago revolt or called such a revolt at all. Nor will it be lead by Maniago to become successful vs Spain.

Yes, I agree with that at that point during the Maniago revolt.

I think it is possible to prevent the Tagalog speakers enroachment of Kapampangan lands by having famine in the Tagalog areas, I think Manila or Rizal does not need to be affected, at one point Cagayan Valley had a famine that caused the Ilocanos to come in to Cagayan, I think it is possible to have Cavite, Laguna and Batangas to have a famine, that will reduce the population of Southern Luzon so that they can't be a threat to Kapampangan speakers and only Ilocanos can be a threat to the Kapampangans after the loss of Maniago due to the destruction of the Integrity of Kapampangans.
 
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