AHC: Make KKK rule America

[The Banker]

Note: I do not endorse or support the ideology of the KKK or any extremists

The KKK are seen today as stupid racist ghost like men who didn't even have proper support from conservatives let alone the larger population of the US
So here's the difficult challenge. Make the KKK rule America
I don't want cheating like 'Making a KKK biased man or ex-KKK man ruling America'. I want actual KKK ideology ruling America

 

[overoceans]

You need pre-1900 for this. Something like Britain decides to intervene in the Civil War AFTER the war has ended, allies with the KKK against Reconstruction, conquers the North, and then leaves the Klan in charge.

Otherwise, it's just not gonna happen, apart from getting more members of the 1920s cosplay Klan into elected office on an individual basis.

 

[Arkenfolm]

The KKK at their most powerful in the 1920s only had a loosely defined ideology that centered around nativism and anti-Catholicism (anti-black/other non-whites wasn't as much a consideration since the laws already oppressed blacks, Chinese, and other non-whites). They were as much a political machine as anything else. I think a KKK-ruled America would be a unique sort of authoritarianism, since the Klan is the "Invisible Empire" after all. There might be a cross burning on the White House lawn once a year, while Klan parades would be a common sight. But it wouldn't be like in Nazi Germany or the USSR where there were swastikas/hammer and sickles at every corner alongside police with military-grade rifles ready to shoot. KKK America would instead have people vanish in the night and a sharp increase in lynchings.

 

[DougM]

not going to happen. The KKK was never that popular. It is possible yo get a KKK supporter in charge (and arguably it may have happened) but you are not getting the KKK in control. We cant get a Democrate or a Republican in in control without half the country having issues with them and those parties are closer to being the same then a radical organization such as the KKK.
There are in short three ways to get control. Get ellected and keep getting elected. kosest we got yo that was probably Washington with FDR in second. The Second option is a the Nazi method, get elected then basicly just take over. But that needs an unstable government/country. And third is to pull a Russia/USSR/China type of forced take over.
The First (Elected and keep getting elected) is not hapoening. The KKK was a radical organization from day one and everyone knew it, they are not getting popular enough yo one one election openinly much less repeated elections allowing them to manipulate the laws to take over. FDR lost a lot of popularity when he tried relatively minor changes
Option 2 while more likly still requires the KKK to get elected and then use something like the Great Depression to just take over. But the US checks and balances are to solid for a German style take over and the KKK was to radical and everyone knew it. So they are not sneaking in to begin with. Arguably the NAZIs were not blatantly evil from day one. They had a bit of that and lokking back we can see that the so calked radical eliment was in fact part of the central organization but they put on a good front and made it look like they were not about killing people. The KKK started from day one with violance and killing and they had that reputation in the majority of the country. You cant avoid that unless you so radically change the KKK that they are no longer the KKK. You also have to get past them starting up as a southern thing at a time when the majority of the country still blamed the south for the war and the deaths from the war. So the north will jot put up with the KKK until at least the 30s. And while racism was still going strong for decades after that it was alwas weaker in the north and a racist terror group is mot getting the support needed to get in.
The NAZI exploited a lot of things to get in. They pretended they were not evil (that ship had long sailed for the KKK) they got elected in some places then using the horrible economy, the exploited the weak parties thatvopposed them and they exploited a weak government to take over. The US had two strong parties by the 30s and a stable government and pre 1930 you are asking a country to hand over control to the losing side if a civil war. That is not happening.
So your only remaining option is a second civil war and the KKK to be last group standing. But the US has not been even close to that. Heck even the Civil war was not truly close to that.
So you are mot getting the KKK in charge unless you so radically change the US to make it no longer the US or you change the KKK so much it is no longer the KKK…
The KKK started off as a terrorist organization in support of extreme racism. And you cant get past that start. the NAZI claimed it was about the economy and the Jews just happened to be causing the problem. The KKK from day one was about keeping the ex slaves in there place and treating them like slaves up to and including killing them if needed. If the NAZI started off with the Keeping Jews in there place and killing them in the middle of the night while hiding there faces they wouldn't have taken over Germany either. You have to ride a very fine line to pull off what the NAZI did and you need a situation that can be exploited. So you would need to change everything so much that the organization and the country are both radically diferent.

 

[Fatt Shea]

Note: I do not endorse or support the ideology of the KKK or any extremists

The KKK are seen today as stupid racist ghost like men who didn't even have proper support from conservatives let alone the larger population of the US
So here's the difficult challenge. Make the KKK rule America
I don't want cheating like 'Making a KKK biased man or ex-KKK man ruling America'. I want actual KKK ideology ruling America

You can have someone with KKK beleifs as president maybe even a member but iI think that they were not mostly looking to overthrow the republic and have KKK dictatorship

 

[Arkenfolm]

not going to happen. The KKK was never that popular. It is possible yo get a KKK supporter in charge (and arguably it may have happened) but you are not getting the KKK in control. We cant get a Democrate or a Republican in in control without half the country having issues with them and those parties are closer to being the same then a radical organization such as the KKK.
There are in short three ways to get control. Get ellected and keep getting elected. kosest we got yo that was probably Washington with FDR in second. The Second option is a the Nazi method, get elected then basicly just take over. But that needs an unstable government/country. And third is to pull a Russia/USSR/China type of forced take over.
The First (Elected and keep getting elected) is not hapoening. The KKK was a radical organization from day one and everyone knew it, they are not getting popular enough yo one one election openinly much less repeated elections allowing them to manipulate the laws to take over. FDR lost a lot of popularity when he tried relatively minor changes
Option 2 while more likly still requires the KKK to get elected and then use something like the Great Depression to just take over. But the US checks and balances are to solid for a German style take over and the KKK was to radical and everyone knew it. So they are not sneaking in to begin with. Arguably the NAZIs were not blatantly evil from day one. They had a bit of that and lokking back we can see that the so calked radical eliment was in fact part of the central organization but they put on a good front and made it look like they were not about killing people. The KKK started from day one with violance and killing and they had that reputation in the majority of the country. You cant avoid that unless you so radically change the KKK that they are no longer the KKK. You also have to get past them starting up as a southern thing at a time when the majority of the country still blamed the south for the war and the deaths from the war. So the north will jot put up with the KKK until at least the 30s. And while racism was still going strong for decades after that it was alwas weaker in the north and a racist terror group is mot getting the support needed to get in.
The NAZI exploited a lot of things to get in. They pretended they were not evil (that ship had long sailed for the KKK) they got elected in some places then using the horrible economy, the exploited the weak parties thatvopposed them and they exploited a weak government to take over. The US had two strong parties by the 30s and a stable government and pre 1930 you are asking a country to hand over control to the losing side if a civil war. That is not happening.
So your only remaining option is a second civil war and the KKK to be last group standing. But the US has not been even close to that. Heck even the Civil war was not truly close to that.

I think you underestimate the popular support the Klan had in the 1920s with over 4 million members and racial views that were held by broad swaths of white Protestant voters. In some places the Klan already tried to operate as a political machine and get their candidates into office and their failures were often because there were tons of established machines that frequently used immigrant voters or even black voters (they'd pay the poll tax, cheat the literacy test, and run the polls so no one would kick them out etc.) which put the KKK at a disadvantage.

And while people nowadays would call the Second KKK just as much of terrorists as the First and Third KKK (although they didn't commit AS MUCH violence relative to their size, after all) that wasn't really the opinion of many people. In 1920s America it was perfectly normal (although nominally illegal) to lynch people for their alleged crimes, operate "sundown towns" or even a "sundown state" (Oregon defacto banned blacks from living there until the late 20s or so), and riot and burn down the non-white part of town. People considered the Klan disreputable for other reasons, like their thuggishness and secrecy and their ridiculous titles like "Wizard" and "Kleagle".

So you are mot getting the KKK in charge unless you so radically change the US to make it no longer the US or you change the KKK so much it is no longer the KKK…
The KKK started off as a terrorist organization in support of extreme racism. And you cant get past that start. the NAZI claimed it was about the economy and the Jews just happened to be causing the problem. The KKK from day one was about keeping the ex slaves in there place and treating them like slaves up to and including killing them if needed.

The second KKK was perhaps more moderate than the first in the sense their political views were relatively mainstream among white Protestants. Yes, they were racist and committed terrorism, but people hardly needed the Klan to target minorities or immigrants with lynchings, arson, etc. They could be very flexible with how they tailored their views by region, that's how at one point the mayors of both Portland, Oregon and Portland, Maine were Klansmen.

If the NAZI started off with the Keeping Jews in there place and killing them in the middle of the night while hiding there faces they wouldn't have taken over Germany either. You have to ride a very fine line to pull off what the NAZI did and you need a situation that can be exploited. So you would need to change everything so much that the organization and the country are both radically diferent.

Although Hitler's 25 Points in 1920 were rather typical of both right-wing statism and the German antisemitic tradition, it does declare that "Jews can never be citizens of Germany" and "only Aryan Germanics are allowed to work as journalists" among other racial statements. And this was the same era that got the Nazis outlawed for several years for trying to overthrow the Bavarian government among many other acts of violent street fighting, mostly against communists which in 1920s Germany wasn't generally considered wrong.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Note: I do not endorse or support the ideology of the KKK or any extremists

The KKK are seen today as stupid racist ghost like men who didn't even have proper support from conservatives let alone the larger population of the US
So here's the difficult challenge. Make the KKK rule America
I don't want cheating like 'Making a KKK biased man or ex-KKK man ruling America'. I want actual KKK ideology ruling America

What counts as 'rule' exactly? A KKK organization that is actually running a state like the USA is no longer going to be the same organization we recognize. Their informal networks, both violent and otherwise, certainly controlled the levers of powers in various states at various times, even open elected office, but does that count as 'ruling'?

 

[marktaha]

If Stephenson hadn't been caught-possible I suppose. There were rumours that Harding and Coolidge secret Klansmen. Leaving this aside- a virulent Nativism perhaps trying to solve the Depression by some kind of repatriation?

 

[DougM]

It is one thingto have a. clansman as President. This is supposed to e a secret society so who knows, we may have had clansmen already. But it is totally different yo have one run openly and yet even more difficult if you want him to run under the clan banner. And then yet another couple orders different to have them take over and run the place.
If you showed me a photo of Wilson putting n a hood I would not be surprised based on his policies.. But that is much different then running as and getting elected as a KKK member,
I also find the numbers of supposed members to be highly doubtful. First off how are you going yo count them? They are by definition a secret organization. Then who is counting that is unbiased? The clan wants higher numbers to look more important the anti clan government agencies want higher numbers so the clan looks more dangerous even a lot of minoritzest and their supporters want higher numbers to make the case about whites being racist so EVERYONE wants to inflate the numbers. So where are you going yo find true numbers?
The entire population was 106 million. The white population is 94 Cut out half that as being women. So you have 47, Cut out the catholics and other that don’t qualify and you are down below 40 million eligible potential members. And you are saying one in 10 of the possible members are card carry members? Sorry I don’t believe it. You can’t get 1/10 of any given group to do anything much less join a group. And that gets worse when you consider how radical said group was. It is one thing to be a racist in 1920 it is another thing to be willing to join a terrorist organization that’s claim to fame was hanging people.

 

[overoceans]

You can’t get 1/10 of any given group to do anything much less join a group. And that gets worse when you consider how radical said group was. It is one thing to be a racist in 1920 it is another thing to be willing to join a terrorist organization that’s claim to fame was hanging people.

According to research I just read in an NPR article on Freemasonry, in 1959 4.5% of all American men were Masons. And that number was possibly higher in the 1920s(when archaic religious-type groups woulda been more popular) and DEFINITELY higher if you factor out Catholics.

So, I could see it as maybe plausible for the klan to have 10% of all protestant men in the 1920s, though I think that would be a pretty big growth spurt from the foundation in 1915. And yeah, the association with violence would likely be a bit of a stumbling block.

(Though just HOW deeply was the second-wave klan associated with violence in the public perception? I know I've seen photos of Klan parades from that era, that look like they were being held quite respectably with public permits. And I've also seen a photo of a Klan meeting in my hometown of Edmonton, where everyone was maskless and dressed to the nines.)

 

[overoceans]

According to another NPR article I just read, by 1935 the KKK had "as many as four million members". Though "as many as" strikes me as a somewhat weasely phrase. Does it just mean that four million was the highest estimate that someone produced?

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

According to another NPR article I just read, by 1935 the KKK had "as many as four million members". Though "as many as" strikes me as a somewhat weasely phrase. Does it just mean that four million was the highest estimate that someone produced?

Financially the Klan had elements of a pyramid scheme. Its fee or cash flow structure favored the recruitment of new members. It appears many nominal members were counted twice, or even thrice as they were counted as new recruits rather than membership renewals. This would distort the numbers, tho probably not account for all the extras. Its also possible the leaders of the local Klavern were counting everyone who showed up at a meeting as 'joined' even if they were never seen again. I've seen these techniques used in fraternal & other organizations to boost membership numbers, sales figures, voting rolls, ect...

 

[YYJ]

The OP did not state which America. If the CSA manage to achieve their goals and succeed from the USA, then the CSA national government would have essentially the same policies as the KKK. The KKK was a reaction to the defeat of the CSA and the abolition of slavery. If the CSA won, no KKK would come into being.

This would require a POD certainty before 1900, like the 1860s.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

(Though just HOW deeply was the second-wave klan associated with violence in the public perception? I know I've seen photos of Klan parades from that era, that look like they were being held quite respectably with public permits. And I've also seen a photo of a Klan meeting in my hometown of Edmonton, where everyone was maskless and dressed to the nines.)

Enough to worry folks outside the Pale. One of the early objectives of the Klan circa 1915-1925 was the enforcement of morality. Aside from lynchings beating of degenerates & other undesirable were common enough to scare people. The Klan supported prohibition from 1915 & made attacks on saloons and similar establishments they decided were dens of immorality. After the 18th Amendment was passed they tried attacking bootleggers. That led them directly into confrontation with a equally or more vicious set of organizations and their powerful political backers.

The Klan did not revive in a instant in 1915. That reflected a ongoing growth in secret societies and a concern by WASPS & others over" Degeneracy in modern America". There was circa 1905 a group in southern Indana referred to as the "White Caps". Midnight attacks and discreet daytime intimidation of local 'degenerates' was their thing. Eventually a attempted lynching attracted the attention of the State Attorney General who made the problem go away for a few years.

 

[Nazi Space Spy]

Cough couch Woodrow Wilson cough cough

 

[sarahz]

You need pre-1900 for this. Something like Britain decides to intervene in the Civil War AFTER the war has ended, allies with the KKK against Reconstruction, conquers the North, and then leaves the Klan in charge.

Otherwise, it's just not gonna happen, apart from getting more members of the 1920s cosplay Klan into elected office on an individual basis.

Not going to get UK post 1867 to do this the middle ciass vote would never stand for it

 

[overoceans]

Not going to get UK post 1867 to do this the middle ciass vote would never stand for it

No, I didn't think so. My whole point is how implausible the scenario is.

 

[DougM]

Once again,.. How do you get true numbers for a secret organization?
I am not doubting someone claims something i just doubt the numbers.
Try using some simple logic, Who is taking the survey? What is the method? how likely are they to A) Get a large enough sample to be accurate, B) get accurate relies. C) not have to fudge the numbers D) not be biased in the results?

There is absolutely no organization in the US that we can truly document that has over 10% of a given population as members. But somehow a racist terrorist group has pulled this number off.
Think about this, we are talking the same approximate numbers the Masons supposadly pulled off, but the masons are A) not terrorists, B) are open to a lot bigger population C) while Secret are NOT hidden, i. sn find a hall almost anywhere with a sign on it.

These numbers CAN NOT be proven. 1) you cant cover the whole county much less whole country so the numbers are the classic BS of you got 10 members out of this 100 people so that means 10% of the nation is…. Which is complete BS. And even trying to get accuret numbers for a small area is impossible. Not very many people are going yo answer honestly. But that is just first problem and not even the biggest hurdle. The big problem is in some areas back in the day if you asked these kinds of quesyions you will be lucky to live to tell about it.

So lets try to use a bit of logic…. Yes i am sure folks were giving out “estimates” but they are undoubtably pure guess work. Based at best on a minor sample size that we cant even truly trust. As this is unprovable. There is no nationaly HQ of the KKK that you can go in and read the membership cards from nor is there test or a national election or anything else that shows proof of membership. And EVERYONE trying to put these numbers together is biased one way ir the other. And oddly itvis better for just about everyone to inflate the numbers.
Inflated Numbers makes
KKK—. look more important and helps with influence (we are huge don't resist us we are to big to fight)
FBI or other government groups. —. the KKK is HUGE, we cant break them up or stop them as they are everywhere so dont ask us to do our jobs,,. by the way we need more money because we are fighting against a HUGE organization ,
Civil Rights organizations and others also have reason to over inflate. It always looks better to be going against a bigger opponent. It makes your struggle look better and justifies needing more assistance,

Look how the French undergrounds success is so radically inflated. or the classic fish story.

Bet lets use our own heads here. You cant possibly get accurate numbers, And those trying to put a number in it have various reasons to over inflate the number. Add in that most people are to lazy or cheap or busy to join anything. Add in that the KKK is dangerous and thus we now have the “to scared to join issue“ on top of this. And you are not getting anywhere near 10% if the nation to join as active members.
Once again i am not talking about what percentage were racists…. that is a totaly different thing (and much higher then 10%.
The two big political parties only get 25-30% of the population to Identify as members…. but you telling me a secret terrorist group that requires you to get up and do something but that does not effect your live,laws or taxes or economy is getting 1/2 to 1/3 as many members….
Come on people.

 

[David T]

Actually, the Klan's weaknesses were evident as early as 1924. To quote an old post of mine:

***
Not having a Stephenson scandal would not IMO have saved the Klan.

The Klan had reached its peak and was starting to decline even before the Stephenson scandal hit in 1925. Already in 1924 it suffered such setbacks as the defeat of governor Walter Pierce in Oregon and the victory of "Ma" Ferguson over Klansman Felix D. Robertson for governor of Texas.

The Stephenson affair was not the only cause of the Klan's decline. Another important factor was internal dissension, both at the national level (the dispute between William Joseph Simmons and his successor as Imperial Wizard, Hiram Evans) and locally. (It is remarkable how in city after city, even before Stephenson was convicted, large numbers of the Klansmen--in some cities virtually all of them--seceded and formed new organizations like the Minute Men of America in Denver, the Independent Protestant Knights of America in Niagara, New York, etc. See Kenneth Jackson, *The Ku Klux Klan in the City, 1915-1930,* https://books.google.com/books?id=xkgwSauBgTwC&pg=PA254 ) Another point is that electoral success became harder as the Klan's opponents united, and electoral frustration in turn led to decline in membership. (It also led non-Klan politicians who had associated themselves with the Klan to back away from it, so that joining the Klan would no longer bring patronage benefits.) Also, the Klan's issues became less compelling: Reds seemed less scary than in the early 1920s, immigration had already been restricted, Prohibition proved unenforceable, and the Catholic Church obviously was not going away. Finally, the sheer *novelty* of the group wore off--I think this factor is often underestimated. The 1920's was an era of short-lived crazes, and in some respects the Klan was one of them, though obviously more sinister than most. Even Al Smith's presidential candidacy in 1928 could not really revive it.

***

I might have added that even the very narrow failure of the Democrats to denounce the Klan by name in their 1924 platform was not really a victory for the Klan; as Klansmen privately noted with concern, even many of those who succeeded in defeating the anti-Klan plank (like Bryan) made clear that they disagreed with the Klan.

Another thing to remember: As I noted at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ed-usa-looks-like.414958/page-2#post-14659501

"There really was no Klan position as such on most economic issues. Politicians who were members of or backed by the Klan ranged from ultra-conservatives to progressives like Hugo Black. Klansmen sometimes broke strikes and sometimes supported them.

"A lot of people are making assumptions based on an oversimplified image of the Klan as a tightly-controlled centralized organization imposing a "line" on every issue on everyone affiliated with it--like the Communist Party."

The Klan might support a national candiadte (like McAdoo in 1924) and he might win, but that would not be the same thing as Klan "control" of the government. McAdoo himself is a good example of this. The Klan supported him because he was pro-Prohibition and because his rivals for the Demcoratic nomination (Al Smith, of course but also Oscar Underwood) were so unaccepatable. But that hardly would mean that McAdoo if elected would be a tool of the Klan, as I explain at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...gest-possible-kkk.422522/page-2#post-15484544

 

[brunohusker]

The only way this might happen is either having the Confederacy win and the Klan becomes a kind of radical right party, or in the 20s they take over a certain party and run it as a kind of front. The problem is that both parties had members on the klan. Southern Democrats were basically the only political party in the south save for some border regions like Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia and even a few counties in Alabama. However in Indiana and Oregon the klan controlled the state Republicans. So it would be doubtful they’d pick one party to control. Granted maybe they could “control” both parties but they’d be more like racist Freemasons than anything. They’d have members across the spectrum that would be United only by race politics.