AHC: Make Japan win the Pacific War.

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Except Nagumo's orders put reducing Midway #1, not sinking any U.S. CVs, expected or not. And the fact is, it didn't matter, because Nagumo was screwed once Fletcher (or Spruance, in the event) did launch. I maintain the only chance Nagumo had was to hit first.

Carriers first, Midway second.

Neither Akagi nor Kaga were sinking from their damage at 1030 if Nagumo doesn't have armed aircraft packed on them. Soryu probably doesn't either. On the other side, if Nagumo had done his job, two US carriers are hors de combat and the third has to run. Game over.

I won't disagree, but Yamamoto needed to look in a mirror, too: he should never have been afloat, & his BBs should not have been so damn far back their CCs couldn't provide aid to Nagumo. If it had been up to me (& this is contrary to IJN practise, AIUI), Yamato and the Mogamis would have led the attack, shelling Midway to destruction, acting as bait for Midway & Fletcher.

Yes.

No option to reach Midway after attacking? That I didn't know.:oops: (And unable to support any attack should have crossed my mind.:oops::oops::oops: )

Specifically, Midway had suffered damage to its fuelling system and had to fuel by hand. At the point of attack on the Japanese fleet, US aircraft could have flown to Midway instead of flying back to the ship. But, if they returned to the US carriers to find them damaged, then they could not turn around and reach Midway.

IDK if I'd call it a defeat, if Midway didn't fall (& it wouldn't). IJN couldn't replace her losses whatever happened. That said, maybe I'm trying to hard to give Nimitz a win.:oops:

Nimitz got the win, but it was hairier than he was expecting it to be, I think.

If it had been up to me, he would've been. Not a fan.

With a little more salt Fletcher could have kept carrier command. He needed a Spruance as his chief of staff sometimes. For example, at Midway, there was no substitute for planting his flag on the Hornet. Instead, he stays on a cruiser. That's not action of an alpha.
 
Post-War Japan needed its victories and heroes. Yamamoto, a Harvard-educated aristocrat, with his opposition to war and the axis, was cut out to play that role in the post-war history education and popular culture. It may seem far-fetched to you, but most Japanese see Pearl Harbor not just as an evidence of Yamamoto's “military genius”, but also genuinely believe it was a defensive act and an attempt by Yamamoto to avoid war (!) These stories (including the one fatal switch) has also been popularised by numerous books and movies in the Showa era and later. Imagine the lessons taught and what it does to the volkgeist: Sometimes circumstances leave Japan without options. Attention to details win battles.

Yes, I think all this has explanatory value for Yamamoto's postwar reputation - better than he deserved.

There was also a biopic in 2011 in the same vein, which I will admit I have not seen.

That movie is a fascinating look into his reputation in 21st century Japan. The Yamamoto myth retains great and even growing power now.
 
Carriers first, Midway second.

Neither Akagi nor Kaga were sinking from their damage at 1030 if Nagumo doesn't have armed aircraft packed on them. Soryu probably doesn't either. On the other side, if Nagumo had done his job, two US carriers are hors de combat and the third has to run. Game over.
Can't fault Nagumo for the plan (or priorities) being buggered. (I used to. I don't now.)
Specifically, Midway had suffered damage to its fuelling system and had to fuel by hand. At the point of attack on the Japanese fleet, US aircraft could have flown to Midway instead of flying back to the ship. But, if they returned to the US carriers to find them damaged, then they could not turn around and reach Midway.
I was thinking, Fletcher/Spruance, knowing their CVs are out of action (if not sunk) tell the returning strikes to divert before they have to ditch. If the timing, in all, makes that impossible...Fletcher gets screwed. For that, I won't fault him. I can't see Nimitz doing it, either.
Nimitz got the win, but it was hairier than he was expecting it to be, I think.
I wouldn't doubt that.;)
With a little more salt Fletcher could have kept carrier command. He needed a Spruance as his chief of staff sometimes. For example, at Midway, there was no substitute for planting his flag on the Hornet. Instead, he stays on a cruiser. That's not action of an alpha.
I have the sense his nerve wasn't good enough to be top dog. XO, or JO afloat, but not SOPA. His willingness to conform to Spruance was a right call, but not one I imagine Halsey (frex) would've made, & Halsey's a clear alpha.

That said, I can't say I know Fletcher's career deeply well, so I could stand correction. I haven't read Black Shoe Admiral (as recommended...).
 

Paul Large

Banned
The only way you could pull this off is if the war in Europe went much, much worse. The USA would of had to have casualties in the millions for them to even think of accepting Japan as a global power.
 
Can't fault Nagumo for the plan (or priorities) being buggered. (I used to. I don't now.)

I didn't say Nagumo was at fault for the flaws in the plan. I said there is no reason to suppose he'd have lost either of the 1st division carriers in the battle had he acted more competently, because USN dive bombers probably couldn't take out 40,000 ton carriers without armed aircraft aboard to cause fires.

I was thinking, Fletcher/Spruance, knowing their CVs are out of action (if not sunk) tell the returning strikes to divert before they have to ditch. If the timing, in all, makes that impossible...Fletcher gets screwed. For that, I won't fault him. I can't see Nimitz doing it, either.

If given instructions to fly to Midway after that attack, during briefing on the carriers, they could have done so. It's possible this could have been done by radio transmission too, but best before 'push over' and not a sure thing, would be my assumption. If the US carriers are hit around the same time as the attack on Nagumo, I'd bet most of the US planes would return to the US carriers.

I have the sense his nerve wasn't good enough to be top dog. XO, or JO afloat, but not SOPA. His willingness to conform to Spruance was a right call, but not one I imagine Halsey (frex) would've made, & Halsey's a clear alpha.

Fletcher needed a strong chief of staff - even Spruance - to starch his linen in key situations. Left to his own devices he had a tendency to act too passively at key moments. I've never understood why at Midway, as senior admiral, Fletcher was content to ride out of the battle on a cruiser rather than doing what an alpha admiral would do - plant his flag on the Hornet.) That being said, Fletcher had the potential to be a late war TF-58 admiral had things gone a bit more his way in 1942, (Saratoga was torpedoed at a highly inopportune moment politically for Fletcher, for example).

That said, I can't say I know Fletcher's career deeply well, so I could stand correction. I haven't read Black Shoe Admiral (as recommended...).

I have, great book. Maybe the best book. The gist is that Fletcher's decisions that get heat are well explained, but the one that really grinds - his abandonment of Turner off Guadalcanal - even Lundstrom can't paper over, (there was no excuse for US carriers to uncover US amphibious forces in air range of an IJN base, IMO).
 
[snip]The gist is that Fletcher's decisions that get heat are well explained, but the one that really grinds - his abandonment of Turner off Guadalcanal - even Lundstrom can't paper over, (there was no excuse for US carriers to uncover US amphibious forces in air range of an IJN base, IMO).

His waffling during the attempted relief of Wake was IMHO another serious error in judgement...
 

DougM

Donor
The only way that Americans are accepting a treaty with Japan that leaves them as a power of an sort is if the treaty is signed in the burned out remains of the White House.
I grew up with a TON of relatives and thier friends that were of that generation and they were not happy with the fact that in the 80s Japan became a corporate power. They NEVER would have excepted them as a military power at the end of the war.
These folks (almost all of them ) actually fought against Germany but it was Japan that they hated.
So in order for this to happen you need one of two things. Keep the hate from ever forming (and I don’t know how you pull that off and still have Japan do better then they did IOTL) or you have to have Japan win SO big that they basic occupy the US and give the US no other option. And that is basically ASB. Keep in mind with the mindset of the average American in 1942-45 we would have tossed England and Europe under a bus before we gave up and let “Japan Win”.

This is the problem that folks onthis (and other) forums lose site of way to often. That at certain times and locations the will of the people is not going to allow things. And we look at it through today’s eyes. The US of 1941 is NOT the US of 2019 and it won’t buckle under because it got tough. Death and war was an accepted thing back then as well as Racial and Political pride. Add in the “treachery” of the sneak attack and doing this on a Sunday during the Christmas season a season of “peace” and you have a country that is not giving up.
They may try to minimize casualties but that is because they are not insane. But if they have to pay the price they will, And with the size of the population and the available natural resources and the huge industrial output it is a price the US can afford.

You want to have Japan win. Then you have to so drastically change the war or the counties so much that it is a totally different world. Now if things go badly in Europe you MAY see that end with a treaty as it didn’t have the same effect in the. Minds of the typical American. But even losing that is going to be hard to make happen and it won’t be so bad that the US “let’s Japan get away”.

You can make the war harder on the US but you have a better (much better) chance of seeing an a certain aquatic mammal (named after a cat) succeeding with minimal German casualties then you have of seeing the US “lose” to Japan.

It can be a fun sci fi story what if but it is NOT going to happen in anything short of a complete Japan Wank/ASB situation or a world so radically changed that it is not recognizable. You would have a lot better chance of keeping the US out of the war then getting Japan to win against the US
 
His waffling during the attempted relief of Wake was IMHO another serious error in judgement...

Lundstrom's account on that one is much more effective for Fletcher. That one is on Kimmel and King, who botched everything about that relief effort - first off by splitting the carriers up so that Saratoga was completely unsupported at the key time and place.
 
Here I just want to upgrade Japanese tanks. Instead of use resources to design new tanks, refit different parts of existing tanks and their assembly lines so parts and lines are interchangeable and re-usable for new tank designs..
1) Refitting the Type 97 Chi-Ha -- designed in 1936 and produced since 1938 --- medium tank turrent onto Type 95 Ha-Gō light tank -- designed in 1933 to 34 and produced since 1936 --- would have evolved into Type 4 Ke-Nu light tank designed in 1936-1937 and produced since 1938. Ke-Nu also would have become the basis for Type 98 light tank Ke-Ni. Essentially, the three tank designs morphed into one light tank which would then have been mass produced. From 1938 Ke-Nu would be produced in time to fight the Red Army and in the Pacific islands. Since 1942 Ke-Ni would gradually replacing Ke-Nu.
2) Would Type 89 medium tank I-Go -- designed in 1928 --- be refitting into a tank destroyer: the same concept of turning Panzer3 into stug3.

medium tank Chi-He and Medium Tank Chi-Nu would not appear in time earlier than in OTL because they were results of countering the Sherman. Before the Pacific War, Japanese troops would not have faced the Sherman; therefore no battlefield experience to push forward two tank designs.
3) Could the German and Italian submarines transport captured British Valentine, Crusader or Soviet T-34 so that Japanese tank designs would be influenced?
 
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