AHC: Make Japan not go into isolation

Libertad

ALTERNATE HISTORY CHALLENGE:

Make Japan not go into an isolationist policy. Bonus points in making it into a world power on the pattern of the British Empire at least in Asia (since the British seems to have learned its craft from the Dutch and the Dutch have been around trading with the Japanese)....

Bonus points on making them stop persecute Christians. Butterflying away Nobunaga and have his hated influential Buddhist monks came into control of Japan instead might make it happen.

I'll try to make a timeline based on that. I want your opinions on the matter.

Thank you! :D:D:D
Is it possible to happen??
 

The Ubbergeek

Nobunaga or an heir or Hideyoshi (a BIG trades minded, kinda cosmopolite - an Osaka guy) or his heir win the power battles, and unite Japan, would have resulted in a Japan more amiable to foreign trade, perhaps.

OR way back... The Taira won over the Minamoto, as I heard the famous war of those clans shaped medieval japan a lot - a classic sea, trade power group VS an agrarian and army based power group.
 

Kooluk Swordsman

Maybe have Japan conquer Korea during the Korean Invasions in the 1500's? That may make it more interested in Asian affairs and adventures early on.
 

The Ubbergeek

Kooluk Swordsman said:
Maybe have Japan conquer Korea during the Korean Invasions in the 1500's? That may make it more interested in Asian affairs and adventures early on.
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But they will loose it, sooner or later, unless they go moderate and are happy with some small state... like max, modern south korea.
China will back koreans fighting back, as they did.
 

tonsofun

If you make the leadership of Japan less paranoid it can be done. Japan only went isolationist because the leadership became paranoid after some drunk Spanish boasted that they would conquer Japan and that all Japanese Christians would join them.
I'm currently working on tl (link is in my sig) where Japan doesn't close off and becomes as highly respected as its European equivalents. Let me know when you start writing yours as I'll keep an interest.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
> Bonus points on making them stop persecute Christians. Butterflying away Nobunaga and have his hated influential Buddhist monks came into control of Japan


what influential buddhist monk ? my knowledge is Nobunaga have hostile relations with buddhist monk and tolerant to christian. its Hideyoshi that started persecuting Christian.
 

Libertad

Damn, maverick's The Dragon Rises High TL is just my kind of an Open Japan TL.... My ideas are all in there.... Wow...

As for influential Buddhist monks... Yes, that's true... Nobunaga sort of destroyed the influence of Buddhist sects in Honshu and He's fairly tolerant of Christianity.... That's why I said that to butterfly Nobunaga will give a chance for those monks to took his place and control Japan... though I now doubt that they will tolerate the presence of Christianity more than Nobunaga...
 

Henriksson

There were pretty good reasons, from the point of view of Japanese leaders of the time, to pursue isolation. Since currency was tied to silver, silver leaking out of Japan wouldn't be so good. So I think changing that could help avoiding isolation.

Libertad said:
Ah... yes... The Sengoku period... Have the Christian daimyos winning there?? Hmmm....
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That's a very interesting scenario, actually.
 

Faeelin

Flocculencio said:
The Christian daimyos win the civil war.
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I honestly can't see it. They spent the entire war on the defensive as the rest of the nation set out to conquer them.

Oddly, I think a weaker Spain and less strong Catholic presence might help. There was a lot of (IMO Justified) concern that the Catholics were a Trojan horse to promote a Spanish conquest of Japan.
 

Faeelin

Henriksson said:
There were pretty good reasons, from the point of view of Japanese leaders of the time, to pursue isolation. Since currency was tied to silver, silver leaking out of Japan wouldn't be so good. So I think changing that could help avoiding isolation.
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Don't forget that Japan continued to trade with the outside world. There were many Chinese trading in Japan during this period...
 

Libertad

Faeelin said:
Don't forget that Japan continued to trade with the outside world. There were many Chinese trading in Japan during this period...
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For short. It's not a perfect isolation. It's a strict isolationism, but not a perfect one.

However, I'm thinking of how Japan will look in not undergoing isolationism...
 

Libertad

Faeelin said:
I honestly can't see it. They spent the entire war on the defensive as the rest of the nation set out to conquer them.

Oddly, I think a weaker Spain and less strong Catholic presence might help. There was a lot of (IMO Justified) concern that the Catholics were a Trojan horse to promote a Spanish conquest of Japan.
Click to expand...

Not possible to happen.... IMO... Japanese military technology, with its militarism... knowledge of the terrain... application of European military methods and technologies... never say die attitude... Spain will be too exhausted in the end in making a pacification of the entire island in rebellion... The distance from New Spain is also crucial... Unless, Filipinos are the ones going to compose the main bulk of the invading army... However, It's a question if it's going to be effective....

Once the Spaniards saw that it's just in its best interest to see an open Japan and that open Japan is just going to pursue close relations with Spain and Portugal and is going to respect its Christian minority.... Things are just going to be fine...

East Asian naval ships back then are also proto-iron clad models... like the Korean turtle ships...

It's inconceivable to happen.... They can't even control the entire Philippines effectively.... and they haven't controlled the entirety of it... Filipino disunity saved them... The Philippines and Japan are two very different animals though... More tightly linked... has a degree of unity... Japanese Christians are also nationalistic and would not welcome Spanish colonialism... You can't just justify the presence of Japanese Christians as enough to make Spain enter the country.... That's not enough... Don't underestimate Asia in its pre-industrial stage....
 

Elfwine

It may not be enough for Spain to succeed - maybe, maybe not - but in the shoes of those who are worried about it all, do you want the Spanish to have the chance?
 
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