AHC make it hard to colonize North America
- Thread starter Wildlife
- Start date
Gunpowder isn't invented by anyone.
The Norse manage to survive longer and properly settle Vinland (and if they bring horses, that would be even better). This gives a level of disease immunity to the Native Americans, and the Norse don't have quite the capacity to conquer the Americas at this point in time.
The Norse manage to survive longer and properly settle Vinland (and if they bring horses, that would be even better). This gives a level of disease immunity to the Native Americans, and the Norse don't have quite the capacity to conquer the Americas at this point in time.
I think you would also need to strengthen the trade connection of the eastern agricultural complex with the mississippian civilizations and of the latter with mesoamerica for maximum disease spread. It it arrives at the right time say 12th century it could go as far as the Andes before the end of the century.
Polynesians arriving and stablishing trade rputes along the pacific coast would help a lot to spread fast.
Perhaps have the Ottomans let European traders have easy access to the east? If I'm not wrong, that was the catalyst for the age of discovery, and changing it might delay European exploration. To avoid the unfortunate IRL fate of the natives, a level of disease resistance would somehow have to be developed. They would then make colonization quite difficult. Civilizations like the Aztecs were militarily inferior, but fighting a foe in unfamiliar territory with reinforcements months away would be hard.
The Ottomans already allowed european traders access to the east. What prompted Spain and Portugal on seeking alternate routes to India was that italian merchants were monopolizing the trade, and going directly to the source was cheaper.
Lusitania
Donor
Sorry you have substituted one colonization by another and brought disease much sooner to the Americas.
regardless of who comes they bring disease and that more than anything else that decimates the natives.
You can do this with a PoD in 1492. Sink Columbus, discouraging other adventurers, and discover America via Brazil and Canada rather than the rich and mild Caribbean. European interest in the New World is significantly delayed as *”the Indies” have less of a reputation for warm beaches full of friendly primitives, and more of a reputation for wasteland jungles and forests full of hostile cannibals. That would have an inestimable knock-on effect in the long term, probably allowing indigenous American societies to recover their populations and organisation before significant numbers of Europeans bother to settle there.
An earlier colonization that is less able to capitalize on the virgin field pandemics, allowing the natives develop immunity and repopuolate well before the arrival of peoples better prepared to take advantage of virgin field epidemics.
People here in the forum sometimes suggest that the Mississipi-Ohio basin could have sustained a large "China-esque" civilization if it had developed agriculture earlier. IIRC, the argument is that this region is immensely fertile, and mostly plain, and thus would allow for the formation of large empires with high population densities. So, let's say that by 1500 there is one of these massive empires in the region that boasts a population of around 50,000,000 (approximately half of what China had at this time). If 80% of the population of this empire dies as a result of the Columbian exchange, that still leaves 10,000,000 people, which is quite an impressive number by early modern European standards. If the centre of this empire is inland enough to make immediate conquest difficult, then it will probably survive and recover in a century or two. Europeans would still presumably colonize the Caribean and the East Coast of the modern US, but the rest of the North American continent could very be rendered inaccessible due to the existance of this Empire.
Lusitania
Donor
Sorry but that is not correct. Technology was only part of the issue. We had numerous discussions on this arguing this till we blue in face.
Norse colonization will either lead to continued earlier contact with Europeans and same result in terms natives dying off. It was not that the Europeans had arms but that native population was decimated by disease with estimates saying loss of 90%.
Or that Norse loose contact with Europe and in the 15-16th century they be in sane boat as the natives when new group of Europeans arrive.
Lusitania
Donor
The problem is that NA has no draft or other types of animals. The Maiyan, Inca and Aztec were advanced civilization but all lacked the technology and animal husbandry to create the right circumstances to survive. I just see this as another empire like Aztec or Inca waiting to be decimated by disease and war.
Well, I've seen people argue convincingly that some North American species could have be dommesticated (bison, deer, etc.). I have also seen it convincingly argued that while beast of burdens are good to have, they are by no means a prerequisite for large and complex civilizations. Moreover, I am definitely sympathetic to the view that the Spanish conquests of the Aztec and the Incas were fairly lucky events, and could have gone the other way. Considering that this hypothetical north american civilization would have a much larger population, and that it's centre would be far away from the coast, and thus of hard access to conquerors, I would give them fairly high chances of survival and eventual rebound.
A significant Itelmen/Nivkh/Chukchi/Inuit-wank, particularly if they adopted pastoralization earlier, particularly equestrian skills, ended up invading at least the Pacific coast of North America.
(PS: This suggestion is on the brink of being classified as ASB though.)
(PS: This suggestion is on the brink of being classified as ASB though.)
Lusitania
Donor
The discovery of animal husbandry (domestication of animals) and the close proximity to human allows for development of diseases and thus also provide preteen for larger populations.
but it was not the Spanish soldiers who conquered the Aztec but disease and enemies of the Aztec. The devastation of disease, war and hunger will decimate advanced cultures and tribes. So while native groups can rebound as seen in the US east coast they a shadow of their power and complex societies are destroyed. The Europeans will continue coming and if the first wave of conquistador and explorers/settlers don’t conquer them the next batch will.
But if there are still 10,000,000 of them after the diseases hit, then that's more than Spain at this period and far more than enough to retain a complex civilization, especially if their centre is removed enough from any area that European conquerors can easily access. I believe that there is a point at which a north civilization would become two large to swallow, even after being decimated by diseases.