Maybe pushing the discussion further afield, but if we were to in a sort expand the Trinity, who could get into it?
AHC make Islam or christianity polytheistic
- Thread starter bob123456789
- Start date
It depends upon what one means by 'god(s)'... There were and currently is some thinkers and ideas that may be seen as polytheistic in certain sects of Islam, and I do not refer to the ideal of intercessions, but in regards to certain ideas of say that Allah is not numerically 'one' or that Allah is such that he gives control over creation of all times to a certain group (Imams) and so forth.
"...But there is a station Allah has favored the Ahl-ul-Bayt (Ali ibn abi Talib, his wife Fatima and their children/grandchildren) with. No other creation has ever held this position station that is currently held by the Holy Imammiyyah. This station, it is none other than the infinite authority over all things in existence in the universe, from atoms to stars. By infinite, we mean to say that there is nothing in the universe that is not under the mandate and control of the Imamiyyah." -Shaykh Ahmad al-Shirazi (Twelver Shi'a)
"Allah has the power of malakoot (power of the creation of souls), or the power to impact/enact the creation of souls or entities. Also, the Imam al-Aj'aj (the final Imam according tot he Twelver groups) is from that creation or souls that exist. However, this Imam, has that same power of malakoot as Allah; his existence is such that he impacts both the material reality that is the daily occurrences of the universe and also the creation factor of spirits (called malakoot). The spiritual effects of the Holy Imam; the one who reaches out towards Him (Imam Aj'aj) will be touched by his embrace. 'Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest' (Quran 13:28), the Imam is the Remembrance of Allah." -Ayatollah Sayid Munir al-Khabbaz (Twelver Shi'a)
"We (the Imams) are the creation of Allah (his first light) and all creation after us, was created by us." -Nahj al-Balagha compiled by Shi'a scholar Sharif al-Razi.
Generally speaking, the position of most high ranking Twelver scholars is that, the Imams are in terms of their power, likened to Allah in authority but are not gods, as they are a created existence by Allah. In other words, Allah is the true deity as he created the Imams, who are created by Allah, who then in turn created all other creation afterwards. So, in this understanding, the only form of ghulat (exaggeration or extremism in regards to Ali and the Imams) is to proscribe divinity to them in saying that they are uncreated. Some scholars in the eras have disagreed with this and said that even ascribing divinity to Ali is permissible, such as Muhammad Salih al-Mazandrani. This is not mentioning the widespread view that the Imams and Muhammad (SAW) was a creation of 'light', that is he is not likened to other humans and many debates in the past on non-Zayydi Shi'a circles were around the topic of whether the prophet and Imams had physical bodies or that everything that happened to them relating to the material, was simply an appearance of such to us as limited human viewers.
"...But there is a station Allah has favored the Ahl-ul-Bayt (Ali ibn abi Talib, his wife Fatima and their children/grandchildren) with. No other creation has ever held this position station that is currently held by the Holy Imammiyyah. This station, it is none other than the infinite authority over all things in existence in the universe, from atoms to stars. By infinite, we mean to say that there is nothing in the universe that is not under the mandate and control of the Imamiyyah." -Shaykh Ahmad al-Shirazi (Twelver Shi'a)
"Allah has the power of malakoot (power of the creation of souls), or the power to impact/enact the creation of souls or entities. Also, the Imam al-Aj'aj (the final Imam according tot he Twelver groups) is from that creation or souls that exist. However, this Imam, has that same power of malakoot as Allah; his existence is such that he impacts both the material reality that is the daily occurrences of the universe and also the creation factor of spirits (called malakoot). The spiritual effects of the Holy Imam; the one who reaches out towards Him (Imam Aj'aj) will be touched by his embrace. 'Verily, in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find rest' (Quran 13:28), the Imam is the Remembrance of Allah." -Ayatollah Sayid Munir al-Khabbaz (Twelver Shi'a)
"We (the Imams) are the creation of Allah (his first light) and all creation after us, was created by us." -Nahj al-Balagha compiled by Shi'a scholar Sharif al-Razi.
Generally speaking, the position of most high ranking Twelver scholars is that, the Imams are in terms of their power, likened to Allah in authority but are not gods, as they are a created existence by Allah. In other words, Allah is the true deity as he created the Imams, who are created by Allah, who then in turn created all other creation afterwards. So, in this understanding, the only form of ghulat (exaggeration or extremism in regards to Ali and the Imams) is to proscribe divinity to them in saying that they are uncreated. Some scholars in the eras have disagreed with this and said that even ascribing divinity to Ali is permissible, such as Muhammad Salih al-Mazandrani. This is not mentioning the widespread view that the Imams and Muhammad (SAW) was a creation of 'light', that is he is not likened to other humans and many debates in the past on non-Zayydi Shi'a circles were around the topic of whether the prophet and Imams had physical bodies or that everything that happened to them relating to the material, was simply an appearance of such to us as limited human viewers.
Last edited:
Well if Judaism is polytheistic, wouldn't Christianity and Islam be influenced by that too? More likely, it'd be a big enough butterfly that the other two religions would not exist, certainly it'd be vastly different than in OTL.
Christianity is easier to be made Polytheistic. I don't think Islam can be made so, that easily. Monotheism is very central to it and removing it would no longer make it "Islam".
As for Christianity, I think there could be other approaches to this. Today, a lot of Christians revere God, Jesus, Virgin Mary, and Joseph at the Center of it, making it quite Polytheistic in itself, already. There are more Monotheistic denominations, though.
Coming back to Islam, I think this needs a Polytheistic Judaism itself, as Early Islam had a lot of inputs from Judaism, fairly directly.
As for Christianity, I think there could be other approaches to this. Today, a lot of Christians revere God, Jesus, Virgin Mary, and Joseph at the Center of it, making it quite Polytheistic in itself, already. There are more Monotheistic denominations, though.
Coming back to Islam, I think this needs a Polytheistic Judaism itself, as Early Islam had a lot of inputs from Judaism, fairly directly.
But they're also all one person. You can't pray to one of them and not get the other two.
Marcion was a Gnostic. Heretics like him and Arius don't count because once you start changing Christian dogma, it ceases to be Christianity. Which is the problem of the OP's question.
The Nicene Creed dates to 325 and that rather definitely rules out any polytheistic Christianity after that date. The first words are "I believe in one God..."
Yeah you could make an argument that the veneration of saints and angels in sacramental Christianity is analogous, at least in the broad sense to the worship of heroes and demigods, but the idea of cults for individual Prophets, at least according to my understanding of Islam would be haram and fundamentally unislamic.
And no true Scotsman wears trousers beneath his kilt...
Even OTL there are non-Nicene Christians, or at least non-Nicenes who would call themselves Christians (though, to be fair, most of these are Unitarians). Point remains that Nicenean=/=Christian.
The thing is, Christianity gets a special 'pass' when the triune gods of the Celtic and to a lesser extent Italic pantheons, let alone all the complexities latent in Hinduism, are generally seen as multiple deities. Furthermore, there are prayers addressing particular aspects of the Trinity--e.g. the Lord's Prayer with its 'our father in heaven...'
Furthermore, you have to factor in the Saints and the Virgin Mary, who are accepted and in some cases prayed to as immortal figures of supernatural power (even if it is only to intervene with the higher power), which sounds a *lot* like gods from a Polytheistic perspective. I would argue that Christianity (in some strains at least) is monotheistic in belief, but polytheistic in practice. The terms, after all, are not a binary but two poles of a spectrum.
As for Islam, the only way I can think of to make it polytheistic (whatever it's called) is for the core of the Islamic world to be converted leaving only the fringes in sub-Saharan Africa and/or India. In either place syncretism could get you a situation where people are identifying as Muslims but have a rather polytheistic belief structure.
The earliest divergence in Christianity that survived to the present are the non-Chalcedonian churches sometimes called the "Oriental Orthodox" but they are certainly monotheistic.
Also, polytheistic Christianity runs into the problems of the old testament and of the Christ being a Jew, which creates a serious problem for any polytheistic concept.
As to the gnostics, it is debatable if any of them actually viewed themselves as actually Christian or not. Gnosticism was pretty much its own thing but with branches towards other religions. The trouble of course is that since it was based on being initiated into ever more arcane and secret knowledge and practices, who knows what actually was at the center of it? We certainly have some gnostic writings, but certainly not all.
Yes, but religions can develop beyond the beliefs of their founders. OG Buddhism was fairly non theistic, for example, but many Mahayana sects certainly aren't. So the personal beliefs of Yeshua ben Yosef, whilst relevant, are not the be-all and end-all of Christian doctrine.
I mean, the 'gnostic gospels' are a thing, after all, and Arius--who you counted as a 'non-Christian heretic'--would certainly have considered himself a Christian.
Druzes and Alawites are self-idendifying Muslims (although not always viewed as Muslims by other followers of Islam), whose beliefs are very different from mainstream Islam. Reincarnation and Al-Hakim as incarnation of God and so on. There are also Muslims regarding Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as prophet, despite fact, that Muhammad is claimed to be last prophet. So I think it is not impossible to have self-identifying Muslims, who'd be considered polytheist.
According to Protestants back in the day, Roman Catholics were basically polytheist heretics as far as they were concerned, what with the de facto worship of saints, and the clergy, and the whole "Vicar of God on Earth" shtick of the Popes. Oh my.
It's not hard to make Islam or Christianity Polytheistic in my opinion. You can make virtually ANY religion polytheistic, or vice versa. Monotheism is the end result of complex philosophical schools of thought that arose and tried to make sense of previously fairly ancient religions that were probably neolithic in origination.
Heck, go back to when Manichaeism and Christianity were rivals and make Christianity take enough influence from Manichaeism to believe that Satan is a literal God of Evil and equal to God. Boom. That's only a step away from basically polytheism once you get the Angels and Demons involved. So like Hollywood Christianity basically.
Islam will have a better luck becoming polytheistic if we use the more mystical Shiate branch of the faith basis as a POD. Shiates and Sufis actually. And I personally think Muslims in the ancient world and the medieval world were much more chill. The divisions that exist today probably weren't anywhere near as profound. And of course, without Wahabhism, the perception of Islam today as a "strict" religion doesn't hold water.
Angels have a more defined role in Islam (the holy spirit is explained to be Gabriel), and Hell is ruled by Angels. Djinns in early Islam had a closer role to play in Islam (as fellow converts to the faith). Either of these elements can be expanded to fit a polytheistic cosmology.
That reminds me, Admiral Zhang He, the Eunuch Chinese Explorer, was a Muslim (and descendant of Mudhummad!)...but he was a HUGE patron of Mazuism. Academics think Zhang He's primary faith was actually Mazuism.
It's also possible to be theologically monotheistic or monistic, but the POPULAR CULTURE becomes polytheistic. The average Chinese probably believe in polytheistic religions like Shenism (aka, popular "Taoism"), despite the fact that Chinese Theology is strictly monistic. You see this in Abrahamic Theology as well, many devotees of the faiths are likely to subscribe to technical heresies that are at odds to what theologians would say.
It's not hard to make Islam or Christianity Polytheistic in my opinion. You can make virtually ANY religion polytheistic, or vice versa. Monotheism is the end result of complex philosophical schools of thought that arose and tried to make sense of previously fairly ancient religions that were probably neolithic in origination.
Heck, go back to when Manichaeism and Christianity were rivals and make Christianity take enough influence from Manichaeism to believe that Satan is a literal God of Evil and equal to God. Boom. That's only a step away from basically polytheism once you get the Angels and Demons involved. So like Hollywood Christianity basically.
Islam will have a better luck becoming polytheistic if we use the more mystical Shiate branch of the faith basis as a POD. Shiates and Sufis actually. And I personally think Muslims in the ancient world and the medieval world were much more chill. The divisions that exist today probably weren't anywhere near as profound. And of course, without Wahabhism, the perception of Islam today as a "strict" religion doesn't hold water.
Angels have a more defined role in Islam (the holy spirit is explained to be Gabriel), and Hell is ruled by Angels. Djinns in early Islam had a closer role to play in Islam (as fellow converts to the faith). Either of these elements can be expanded to fit a polytheistic cosmology.
That reminds me, Admiral Zhang He, the Eunuch Chinese Explorer, was a Muslim (and descendant of Mudhummad!)...but he was a HUGE patron of Mazuism. Academics think Zhang He's primary faith was actually Mazuism.
It's also possible to be theologically monotheistic or monistic, but the POPULAR CULTURE becomes polytheistic. The average Chinese probably believe in polytheistic religions like Shenism (aka, popular "Taoism"), despite the fact that Chinese Theology is strictly monistic. You see this in Abrahamic Theology as well, many devotees of the faiths are likely to subscribe to technical heresies that are at odds to what theologians would say.
Stupid Idea: what about an ATL Taiping faith, that is actually more than the rumblings of a insane madman?
Syncretic Faith build from Chinese folk religion and (catholic) Christianity with a much stronger focus on the divine veneration of saints, who are based on Chinese folk deities, resulting in a true pantheon.
I just don’t see the divinity in usual western saint veneration. Violating the first commandment does not seem very realistic to me. However, as a „local“ faith for lower classes I could see this thing take root in China.
Syncretic Faith build from Chinese folk religion and (catholic) Christianity with a much stronger focus on the divine veneration of saints, who are based on Chinese folk deities, resulting in a true pantheon.
I just don’t see the divinity in usual western saint veneration. Violating the first commandment does not seem very realistic to me. However, as a „local“ faith for lower classes I could see this thing take root in China.
Arianism can be viewed as polytheistic depending on which interpretation of it one goes with, and it would probably be the strongest point of departure for a polytheistic Christianity, really.
Mormonism (LDS) could also be interpreted as polytheistic depending on how one parses their teachings, it has some similarities to Arianism, and it is growing.
There's plenty of folks who wrongly call Catholics polytheists because they horrendously misunderstand what intercession is, there you go; "Polytheist" Christianity.