As Sparky42 pointed out to me not too long ago, even post-WWII Ireland (which was not in an all too bad a shape, despite some of its economic and social backwardness) had serious problems maintaining a squadron of second-hand Centurion tanks. And that was with an increased budget, at the same time when the Air Corps was flying Spitfires and Vampires and other fancy, proper fighter planes. There's a reason why OTL Ireland decided to turn back to smaller and more affordable armoured vehicles, e.g. Swiss MOWAGs or British light tanks from the CVR(T) series, and decomission what little fighters it had by the 70s and 80s, focusing on helis, patrol planes and transports instead.
AHC: Make Ireland a heavily militarized country
- Thread starter Armored Diplomacy
- Start date
Pangur
Donor
There is a very strong cause and effect bit to consider. In the OTL there was no real enemy for the Irish to fight. No enemy, why bother with a strong military? The other consideration is what possible use would Ireland have for tanks? The geography of the nation is very tank unfriendly
If at the birth of the Republic something like the adaption of the Swiss model would change the face of the Defence Forces and their treatment and support from the rest of the nation, which would create butterflies. And it was Comets that fell apart, (the Government wouldn't spring for spares when we bought them so things went wrong fairly quickly, though we did try sticking a Merlin in as a replacement engine. Didn't work so well)
Yes certainly reductions in capability is the only long term viable route for them either in OTL or in any likely alternative TL given the price of equipment, though like I said changes in policy here or there, or slightly different procurement policies would change things even now in the state of the Forces
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I could imagine that every bridge along the routes would need strengthening for tank weights for 1.
If Ireland is in NATO then there's a reason for things, if not then you would get something close to current levels.
And having the UK as an enemy for long term isn't sustainable in my view, Ireland needs the UK far too much to be at odds with them long term.
Pangur
Donor
Yes to the bridges and equally until fairly recently the road network itself would be death traps for tanks, way to narrow and twisty
Not wrong mate!! When I sketching out the two options I gave I was well and truely at a loss post ww2 for a reason to keep the UK as an enemy which is why I did not even try. The Sov's were the only option I could think of
Denmark was until around 1870 a very heavily Militarized states and one of two places that were often referred to as 'A Military with a State', and it only had a population of 1.78 million at the time AND bordered a much larger state (24.68 million) that had a large and powerful military.
While the Republic is now at it's highest population since then and that's only 4.6 million, it will take a while (who knows though we added a million in 20 years), only North and South would ever get back to those numbers I think, combined at the moment it's 6.4 million.
But like I said the UK isn't going to be an enemy, Ireland just couldn't survive long term if it was. Perhaps at the foundation of the state have more hostility leading to some greater investment and support of the forces, resulting in more investment over the 90 years but after the first generation that would change back to OTL relations I think
I can just see them having to close an entire main route in both directions every time the tanks have to go to the Glen for practice
.A couple of years of that and the locals would probably burn the tanks, or tell them to go cross country all the way up.
For example here's the logistics corps facing an issue getting a 76mm to the yard, (and this is the main road for 15K of people which had to be shut for the move). There are much narrower and lower bridges all over the place, (please note the repairs done to the bridge, CIE the (the Irish transport group) announced a few years back that a rail bridge was hit by road traffic something like once a day from memory, given the width of MBT's that might be an issue
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Up until 2000 the only motorway was in Dublin, every other main road linking cities was single carriage way (and God awful at that from memories of going up to Dublin), since then about 3000km of Motorway and Motorway standard dual carriage way have been built so it's not much of a problem now. The interurban links are done except for a couple of ones that didn't make the pre-Crash start up.
Course that plays into the where does the money come from point that always comes up.
But certainly there are issues, that picture is of 2 right angle turns and about 3 miles before that is a 1920's rebuild of a 1800's hump back bridge that was never meant to take the loads it does now. Other bridges/roads/tunnels are just not cost effective to replace even though they are completely unfit for modern vehicles. Given that the training areas are by nature away from population centres, there wouldn't be much investment to improve the roads just so that the Army could get their tanks there.
So very true.
There are times that if we couldn't laugh we'd have to cry, and other times it just makes sure we never take things to seriously.
deathscompanion1
Banned
A threatened and militarized Ireland would have very different needs than South Korea or Israel.
Large standing forces backed by artillery and armor would be torn to shreds by the RAF within hours.
A Ireland threatened with invasion would focus on special forces and para military forces and try and make Britian bleed until it eventually gives up.
It worked OTL so it would probably be a major part of doctrine.
Large standing forces backed by artillery and armor would be torn to shreds by the RAF within hours.
A Ireland threatened with invasion would focus on special forces and para military forces and try and make Britian bleed until it eventually gives up.
It worked OTL so it would probably be a major part of doctrine.
Making Ireland a militarised country is easy, just it it a big fuck-off threat to deal with and it will arm up with the best of them, strong economy or not. Israel was a povo country when they fought all their big wars, still is too a large extent, and South Africa isn't really rich either yet both were/are very strong militarily by maximising their resources.
I'm not sure about this requirement that Ireland have heavy mechansied force, are they appropriate for the threat Ireland would have to face?
I'm not sure about this requirement that Ireland have heavy mechansied force, are they appropriate for the threat Ireland would have to face?
The point is that Ireland can't arm up with the best of them. From 1926 to 1980 the population was below 3 million people. There's only so much you can do with that small a population and the only viable threat coming from the vastly larger neighbour. Ireland also wouldn't have the level of international support Israel enjoys( if its an Anglo Irish issue who is the world going to side with) nor the exploitable mineral wealth like SA.
As for heavy mech. Certainly it's not suited to Ireland. Pangur and I have said that cv(t)/mowag style forces are suited to Ireland. However if the enemy threat is the UK then you have a large border and a heavy mech force that can move quickly out of the north.
As I understand it , that's sort of the main doctrine for any "invasion" at the moment anyway. Not the most likely solution but its not the most likely threat.
While I wouldn't call it militarising even if Ireland went to the NATO standard of what 2-3% that's still at least double current spending. More if the pension costs are removed from the defence budget. Used carefully (which in fairness they do most of the time) that could provide increases.
A little bit more flexibility in government policies in purchases would change things as well. For example Ireland was offered a fair deal for Czech (I think) light jets after 9/11. The Blackhawk offer was with spare surplus airframes thrown in as well apperently to match what we bought new. I can't find it now but the government of the day was toying with buying new build vessel from the UK. It was on order for a nation that had a coup, ended up in RN service. This was at the time when the the last flower was no longer functional.
Edit: got my internet working again. It was the HMS Mermaid that was proposed when Ghana refused her. According to Daíl records the Minister was asked to deny Irish interest in the Leopard class (I have no idea why Ireland would be interested in Leopards but again just change a decision and the Irish navy doubles and pressure for something to match her might exist afterwards (maybe the Diedre and Aoife's are larger to start with or Eithne is enlarged) and it's would be a massive jump from 1 WW2 FLower
Small changes could ripple through equipment purchases.
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Speaking as an Irish person, what makes you think we have any interest in our position in the Isles or changing it? We are quite happy in the exact position that we are in right now in terms of Anglo-Irish relations, as shown by Hague commenting that they are the best that they've ever been. And by the way if we are bit players so are Wales, NI certainly and arguable Scotland given population trends, so are you righting off 3 out of the 4 UK countries as minor?
Now in ATL suggestions here perhaps that's different but as Pangur and I have said its the least likely situation out of any that would cause Ireland to develop militarially.
It's certainly an option. Either have Collins live a little bit longer, or bring any proposed mission forward. Perhaps couple it with a view from Government that it would help unify the nation having everyone serving together, and maybe sell it as a short term need post War of Independence/Civil war.
Then with the instability of the late 20's, 30's make it permanent, with a more demonstrated use in WW2, either a more aggressive naval/air patrolling or actual involvement in WW2 (if the UK could entice such a Free State in to the war they would be of much more use).
The Defence Forces have sadly been the strange relative that nobody talks about in Ireland (I think they're number 36 or so in terms of spending allotments). Having started as a form of a Swiss model this would alter the very foundation of the State and the Defence Forces and change the relationship between the people and the forces.
It's still not going to get you anything like top tier, but it would be a massive change.
If the UK and the USA end up aligned against each other, Cold War style, after Ireland is independent, then Ireland is going to be America's Airfield One. National chauvinism would lead Ireland to take more and more responsibility for their own defence. This could happen if the Second World War shook out differently, or if Britain goes full 1984 on us.
In practice, this will be a lot of high-tech jobs, as the Irish Defence Forces man radar stations, naval patrols, air forces, mixed with counter-terrorism, as Britain funds and arms loyalists in Ulster. One or two brigades of armour and one or two air mobile brigades to give us a spearhead, with a draft to create a pool of reservists in case something serious happens. Native Irish bomb by the eighties, probably kept in the same kind of undeclared state as Israel's arsenal, for much the same reasons. Ireland's Navy and Air Force would be her main defence, with the Army just around to slow down any beachheads until they can be cut off by air and sea, or until the US Marines get into it.
Not that Ireland could survive long if the balloon goes up, just that we'd make ourselves prickly enough that it wouldn't be all one way. And the North would be a lot bloodier, with at least two great powers directly and deliberately fuelling the conflict, instead of every great power trying to ignore or defuse it.
In practice, this will be a lot of high-tech jobs, as the Irish Defence Forces man radar stations, naval patrols, air forces, mixed with counter-terrorism, as Britain funds and arms loyalists in Ulster. One or two brigades of armour and one or two air mobile brigades to give us a spearhead, with a draft to create a pool of reservists in case something serious happens. Native Irish bomb by the eighties, probably kept in the same kind of undeclared state as Israel's arsenal, for much the same reasons. Ireland's Navy and Air Force would be her main defence, with the Army just around to slow down any beachheads until they can be cut off by air and sea, or until the US Marines get into it.
Not that Ireland could survive long if the balloon goes up, just that we'd make ourselves prickly enough that it wouldn't be all one way. And the North would be a lot bloodier, with at least two great powers directly and deliberately fuelling the conflict, instead of every great power trying to ignore or defuse it.